Is Alcohol a drug?

[Aloysius]

I agree with those quotes so long as legitimate use of authority is limited solely to laws for the common good as the Catechism says. I'm not trying to be an authority unto myself (though I do joke with friends that I have declared the area in a ten foot radius around wherever I am is now officially its own country

[Cam42]

[quote name='philothea' date='Dec 12 2005, 12:46 AM']Excerpts from the Catholic Encyclopedia on [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09053a.htm"]Law[/url]:
[quote]In what then does this obligation which law imposes upon us consist? Modern ethical systems which seek to construct a morality independent of God and religion, are here confronted by an inexplicable riddle. The utmost pains have been taken to construct a true obligation without regard to God. According to Kant our reason itself is the final source of obligation, it obliges us of itself, it is nomothetic and autonomous, and the absolute form in which it commands us is the categorical imperative. We are obliged to fulfil the law only on account of itself or because it is the law of our reason; to do something because another has commanded us is not moral, even should this other be God. This view is entirely untenable. We do not owe obedience to the laws of Church and State because we bind ourselves thereto, but because their superior authority obliges us. The child owes obedience to its parents not because it engages so to do but because the authority of the parents obliges it. Whoever asserts that man can bind only himself, strikes at the root of all authority and asserts the principle of anarchism. Authority is the right to issue to others binding, obligatory regulations. Whoever maintains that none can put more than himself under obligation denies, thereby, all authority. What is said of human authority is equally valid of the Divine authority. We owe adoration, obedience, and love to God, not because we engage so to do, but because God obliges us by His commands. The assertion that to do something because God has commanded us is heteronomy (subjection to the law of another) and therefore not moral, implies in principle the destruction of all religion, which in its essence rests upon the subjection of the creature to his Creator.[/quote]

[quote]In order that a human law may be obligatory upon us we must have in ourselves from the beginning the conviction that we are to do good and avoid evil, that we are to obey rightful authority, etc. But the further question now arises, whence do we receive this conviction? From God, our Creator. Just as our whole being is an image of God, so also is our reason with its powers and inborn tendencies an image of the Divine Reason, and our cognitions which we involuntarily form in consequence of natural tendency are a participation in the Divine wisdom,--are, it may be said, a streaming in of the Divine light into the created reason. This is, indeed, not to be so understood as though we had innate ideas, but rather that the ability and inclination are inborn in us by virtue of which we spontaneously form universal concepts and principles, both in the theoretical and practical order, and easily discern that in these practical principles the will of the Supreme Director of all things manifests itself.[/quote]

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Great post.

[Era Might]

A) The temperate consumption of alcohol is a great good.

B) The drinking age in the United States is aimed at the mollification of immaturity. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with a lesser drinking age.

C) The temperate consumption of alcohol by an 18 year old, in a private setting, causes no scandal, nor does it exacerbate immaturity in others.

D) Hence, although the letter of the civil law is broken, the spirit of the law is not transgressed. The good that comes from the consumption of alcohol is far greater than the keeping of a law which does nothing more than curb a morally acceptable private good.

Edited December 12, 2005 by Era Might

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Dec 11 2005, 10:53 PM']A) The temperate consumption of alcohol is a great good.

B) The drinking age in the United States is aimed at the mollification of immaturity. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with a lesser drinking age.

C) The temperate consumption of alcohol by an 18 year old, in a private setting, causes no scandal, nor does it exacerbate immaturity in others.

D) Hence, although the letter of the civil law is broken, the spirit of the law is not transgressed. The good that comes from the consumption of alcohol is far greater than the keeping of a law which does nothing more than curb a morally acceptable private good.
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:applause:

[Cam42]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 12 2005, 12:51 AM']I agree with those quotes so long as legitimate use of authority is limited solely to laws for the common good as the Catechism says.  I'm not trying to be an authority unto myself (though I do joke with friends that I have declared the area in a ten foot radius around wherever I am is now officially its own country
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But you are when you say:

[quote]temperence can be practiced equally well without the deference to society, but a deference to right reason, conscience, and parental advice. yes, we must govern our appetites. no, [b]we must not necessarily do it under the guidance of restrictive laws if we find them to be unjust.[/b][/quote]
(emphasis mine)

[philothea]

More Romans, this time from the start of chapter 13

[quote] Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no  authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves.

For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it, for it is a servant of God for your good.[/quote]

(This is where I get my idea of slavish obedience from.)

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='philothea' date='Dec 11 2005, 10:50 PM']There may be a stigma...  but no one afflicted with that mindset is participating in this discussion, as far as I have been able to see.  Are you thinking of someone in particular?

My issue is with willful self-indulgent law breaking.
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The tone of many of the posts on this thread seems to downplay the fact that alcohol is a good. I'm not saying its morally good, obviously it is in itself morally neutral. And I'm not guilty of the straw man fallacy because I wasn’t' really trying to argue against an explicit argument, just mention something that seems to be lacking in this discussion.

And I'm sorry, but the alcohol stigma pervades our culture to a high degree. And not just in the form of puritanism and prohibitionism, but I'd say its essential to the subculture of alcohol abuse as well.

[Era Might]

The law was made for man, not man for the law.

I was very legalistic when I entered the Church. I really did worry about going to hell for crossing the street outside of the crosswalk. I would preach to my family at imprudent times because I thought evangelization was a legalistic duty. There was no room for prudence or common sense; I had to preach the Gospel, or God would deny me.

I have, fortunately, moved beyond this mindset. It borders on scrupolosity, at least it did for me.

[philothea]

BTW, I can keep citing documents that support my position ALL NIGHT. (Or until my internet connection gets shut down... But then I can save up and post them in the morning.

Does anyone have any evidence that it's okay to disobey moral laws?

[Aloysius]

I long ago abandoned the notion of something being actually morally neutral... I thought that was you that got me re-thinking that idea? maybe it was JeffCR07... regardless, I know someone on phatmass got me re-thinking whether there actually exists something that could be morally neutral in reality, and I concluded that even if it is useful as a philisophical construct (i.e. killing is moraly neutral, just killing is good, murder is evil), it just doesn't tie down to a discussion of reality.

if alcohol can be used for either good or evil, it is morally good. because evil is by definition the twisting of something good.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='philothea' date='Dec 12 2005, 12:02 AM']BTW, I can keep citing documents that support my position ALL NIGHT.  (Or until my internet connection gets shut down... But then I can save up and post them in the morning.

Does anyone have any evidence that it's okay to disobey moral laws?
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PAGE THREE> GREEN TEXT> CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

[Laudate_Dominum]

Food is morally neutral, but it is a good. Gluttony is a deadly sin, as is alcohol abuse. Irresponsible eating habits contribute to untold premature deaths in our society, irresponsible drinking is capable of the same. I'm serious too, heart disease is way up there is terms of killers in our society. The biggest cause of heart disease is the rampant abuse of food in our society.

Stop the insanity!!!!!!!!!!!

[Era Might]

Full disclosure: I do not drink alcohol. My father is an alcoholic, and I don't need the inheritance . My arguments are purely acadamic. As I said, in questions like this, the advice of a Priest is always wise.

[Aloysius]

well, since food is a good, I personally abandon any terminology that calls it morally neutral. maybe this was Apotheoun that got me thinking this way? I'm so confused, I can't remember. I just remember one time posting a whole big comment about how stuff was morally neutral, and then I got slammed and I was like, ahhh... things are not morally neutral... anything we'd call morally neutral is actually morally good.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Dec 11 2005, 11:05 PM']Food is morally neutral, but it is a good. Gluttony is a deadly sin, as is alcohol abuse. Irresponsible eating habits contribute to untold premature deaths in our society, irresponsible drinking is capable of the same. I'm serious too, heart disease is way up there is terms of killers in our society. The biggest cause of heart disease is the rampant abuse of food in our society.

Stop the insanity!!!!!!!!!!!
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