Is Alcohol a drug?

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 12 2005, 12:25 AM']I don't often post about family matters, (cause then Steve Urkel would come, you know) but I will say breifly they do not have a problem with it.
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steve urkel, at your service!

[Aloysius]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Dec 11 2005, 11:26 PM']five shots an hour?
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a little tid-bit from the other thread that shows nothing other than the fact that I have no experience with heavy drinking.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I like to think alcohol is a great good. Besides the fact that Christ chose it as the sign in which He gives us His very Blood, it is used in Scripture in other places that suggest it is something blessed by God. It is definitely something acceptable to God. Certain prohibitions from wine and strong drink seem to me to indicate not that it is something unclean and wicked, but rather that it is something particularly blessed by God. The logic of its uncleanness could just as easily be applied to sex leading one to conclude that sex is dirty and evil.
The totality of the Biblical materially regarding wine leads me to the view that it is in fact a great blessing from God and a sign of His love. Certainly wine is something that can be abused, but this seems to be the case with the higher goods in life. But I would say that the approach of stigmatizing alcohol is border line satanic.

There are hundreds of passages in Scripture that make mention of wine. Considering this in its totality it is quite clear that wine is something to be appreciated as a gift of God, and respected, but not made out to be an evil drug.

Here are just a few of the hundreds of verses..

"May he kiss me with the kisses of his mouth!For your love is better than wine."

"Draw me after you and let us run together! The king has brought me into his chambers " " We will rejoice in you and be glad; We will extol your love more than wine.Rightly do they love you."

"How beautiful is your love, my sister, my bride! How much better is your love than wine, And the fragrance of your oilsThan all kinds of spices!"

"Your navel is like a round goblet which never lacks mixed wine; your belly is like a heap of wheat fenced about with lilies"

"And your mouth like the best wine!" " It goes down smoothly for my beloved,Flowing gently through the lips of those who fall asleep"

"I would lead you and bring youInto the house of my mother, who used to instruct me;I would give you spiced wine to drink from the juice of my pomegranates."

"In that day,"A vineyard of wine, sing of it!"

"until I come and take you away to a land like your own land, a land of grain and new wine, a land of bread and vineyards"

"Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters;And you who have no money come, buy and eat Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost."

"Come," they say, "let us get wine, and let us drink heavily of strong drink; and tomorrow will be like today, only more so."

"The LORD has sworn by His right hand and by His strong arm,"I will never again give your grain as food for your enemies;Nor will foreigners drink your new wine for which you have labored."

"Go to the house of the Rechabites and speak to them, and bring them into the house of the LORD, into one of the chambers, and give them wine to drink."

"Then I set before the men of the house of the Rechabites pitchers full of wine and cups; and I said to them, " Drink wine!"

"Ephraim will be like a mighty man,And their heart will be glad as if from wine;Indeed, their children will see it and be glad,Their heart will rejoice in the LORD."

"And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High"

"Now may God give you of the dew of heaven,And of the fatness of the earth,And an abundance of grain and new wine"

"But Isaac replied to Esau, "Behold, I have made him your master, and all his relatives I have given to him as servants; and with grain and new wine I have sustained him. Now as for you then, what can I do, my son?"

"and there shall be one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with one-fourth of a hin of beaten oil, and one-fourth of a hin of wine for a drink offering with one lamb."

"Its grain offering shall then be two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil, an offering by fire to the LORD for a soothing aroma, with its drink offering, a fourth of a hin of wine."

"Then the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD. It is holy for the priest, together with the breast offered by waving and the thigh offered by lifting up; and afterward the Nazirite may drink wine"

"and you shall prepare wine for the drink offering, one-fourth of a hin, with the burnt offering or for the sacrifice, for each lamb."

"and for the drink offering you shall offer one-third of a hin of wine as a soothing aroma to the LORD"

"All the best of the fresh oil and all the best of the fresh wine and of the grain, the first fruits of those which they give to the LORD, I give them to you."

"He will love you and bless you and multiply you; He will also bless the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground, your grain and your new wine and your oil, the increase of your herd and the young of your flock, in the land which He swore to your forefathers to give you."

"You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household."

"But the vine said to them, 'Shall I leave my new wine, which cheers God and men, and go to wave over the trees?"

"Some of them also were appointed over the furniture and over all the utensils of the sanctuary and over the fine flour and the wine and the oil and the frankincense and the spices."

"As soon as the order spread, the sons of Israel provided in abundance the first fruits of grain, new wine, oil, honey and of all the produce of the field; and they brought in abundantly the tithe of all."

"had prepared a large room for him, where formerly they put the grain offerings, the frankincense, the utensils and the tithes of grain, wine and oil prescribed for the Levites, the singers and the gatekeepers, and the contributions for the priests."

"Drinks were served in golden vessels of various kinds, and the royal wine was plentiful according to the king's bounty."

"You have put gladness in my heart,More than when their grain and new wine abound."

"And wine which makes man's heart glad, So that he may make his face glisten with oil, And food which sustains man's heart"

"So your barns will be filled with plenty and your vats will overflow with new wine."

"She has prepared her food, she has mixed her wine;She has also set her table."

"Come, eat of my food and drink of the wine I have mixed."

"Go then, eat your bread in happiness and drink your wine with a cheerful heart; for God has already approved your works."

[Era Might]

If you feel you need to confess crossing in the middle of the street, I respect that.

I don't. I cross in the middle purposely, because I don't care about the crosswalk. I'm a grown man. I know how to cross a street.

St. Thomas says:

"...laws may be unjust...by being contrary to human good."

Alcohol was given for the good of man. An 18 year old is a man (universally speaking, 18 is a rather old mark for adulthood). St. Thomas notes notes that irrational or burdensome laws may be disobeyed, "provided he avoid giving scandal or inflicting a more grievous hurt."

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/209604.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/209604.htm[/url]

Edited December 12, 2005 by Era Might

[Laudate_Dominum]

I'm not assuming that this alone justified underage drinking (my previous post). I just can't participate in a conversation in which it is assumed or implied that alcohol is anything other than a gift from God and a great good to be appreciated.

Otherwise Christ gives Himself to us in the form of something evil. To say alcohol is an evil drug is to suggest something like, Christ coming to us in the form of crack or heroine.
Sex is one of the most abused gifts of God in human life, but this fact hardly makes it evil. Although the same puritanical mentality that would condemn alcohol would condemn authentic sexuality.

[philothea]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Dec 11 2005, 10:30 PM']I like to think alcohol is a great good. Besides the fact that Christ chose it as the sign in which He gives us His very Blood, it is used in Scripture in other places that suggest it is something blessed by God. It is definitely something acceptable to God.
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Too much work to prove a point that no one disagrees with! :



(And FWIW, I have never heard Al mention wine specifically in his personal underage drinking.)

[Cam42]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 12 2005, 12:28 AM']temperence can be practiced equally well without the deference to society, but a deference to right reason, conscience, and parental advice.  yes, we must govern our appetites.  no, we must not necessarily do it under the guidance of restrictive laws if we find them to be unjust.
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Those laws of which you call "unjust" are not up for personal interpetation though. You cannot simply dismiss the drinking age, because you personally disagree with it.

By doing that you are being anarchist and showing a willful disobedience for the law. You are not, in that instance, governing your appetite, but rather you are succombing to it.

[Aloysius]

I am no anarchist. not in the slightest. Me and L_D are panarchists! quite a better concept indeed that we are inventing as we go along!

I am not succumbing to my appetites in regards to alcohol. I would say I have succumb to my appetites in regards to caffeine quite a bit, but alcohol-- definitely not. I know what succumbing to your appetites looks like, and merely not following a law that your conscience, after much questioning and reasoning, has told you is not morally binding-- no that's not succumbing to your appetites. actually, it's me listening to my conscience.

like I said, I did not begin drinking and then later decide I needed to justify it, I used to argue against underage drinking but after much questioning, I determined that law was unnecessary, unjust, and not morally binding. it was my conscience that led me into drinking alcohol responsibly.

[Theoketos]

For me what it comes down to is: 1) whether our government is legitimate (yes), 2) Is the law contrary to the moral law (In this case, No). So it is a just law and must be obeyed while live under this human law.

Now I agree that the law may need to be changed, but I believe the reason for instating it in this country was licit. The outrageous numbers of underage drinking fatalities from driving.

If you are breaking the law and sneaking alcohol I would call that intemperant.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='philothea' date='Dec 11 2005, 10:35 PM']

Too much work to prove a point that no one disagrees with!  :



(And FWIW, I have never heard Al mention wine specifically in his personal underage drinking.)
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But there really is a stigma attached to alcohol that I believe makes it difficult to appreciate the full import of this reality.

The prohibitionary attitude originated in a heretical, anti-Catholic world-view.
It is ironic that cultures/countries with prohibitionary attitudes tend to be those who suffer from the most alcohol abuse. Cultures which lack the alcohol taboo tend to appreciate alcohol for what it is and don't have to bother with all kinds of absurd laws.
Interestingly, it seems to me that these cultures tend to be the most family oriented as well. There is a very strong connection here, because the ultimate issue to my mind is the weakening of the family and the hostile takeover of the state as primary educator and disciplinarian of our youth.

This is a most dangerous move, because it is enacting the vision of Marx and his progeny. It is of the devil.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Dec 11 2005, 10:34 PM']I'm not assuming that this alone justified underage drinking (my previous post). I just can't participate in a conversation in which it is assumed or implied that alcohol is anything other than a gift from God and a great good to be appreciated.

Otherwise Christ gives Himself to us in the form of something evil. To say alcohol is an evil drug is to suggest something like, Christ coming to us in the form of crack or heroine.
Sex is one of the most abused gifts of God in human life, but this fact hardly makes it evil. Although the same puritanical mentality that would condemn alcohol would condemn authentic sexuality.
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I agree!


We need to change our culture to see this.

[Aloysius]

I have argued before, from the Catechism, that it is not merely that it does not contradict moral law. the green text post on the third page. that would put absolutely everything right up to the brink of immorality under the state's dominion.

[philothea]

Excerpts from the Catholic Encyclopedia on [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09053a.htm"]Law[/url]:

[quote]In what then does this obligation which law imposes upon us consist? Modern ethical systems which seek to construct a morality independent of God and religion, are here confronted by an inexplicable riddle. The utmost pains have been taken to construct a true obligation without regard to God. According to Kant our reason itself is the final source of obligation, it obliges us of itself, it is nomothetic and autonomous, and the absolute form in which it commands us is the categorical imperative. We are obliged to fulfil the law only on account of itself or because it is the law of our reason; to do something because another has commanded us is not moral, even should this other be God. This view is entirely untenable. We do not owe obedience to the laws of Church and State because we bind ourselves thereto, but because their superior authority obliges us. The child owes obedience to its parents not because it engages so to do but because the authority of the parents obliges it. Whoever asserts that man can bind only himself, strikes at the root of all authority and asserts the principle of anarchism. Authority is the right to issue to others binding, obligatory regulations. Whoever maintains that none can put more than himself under obligation denies, thereby, all authority. What is said of human authority is equally valid of the Divine authority. We owe adoration, obedience, and love to God, not because we engage so to do, but because God obliges us by His commands. The assertion that to do something because God has commanded us is heteronomy (subjection to the law of another) and therefore not moral, implies in principle the destruction of all religion, which in its essence rests upon the subjection of the creature to his Creator.[/quote]

[quote]In order that a human law may be obligatory upon us we must have in ourselves from the beginning the conviction that we are to do good and avoid evil, that we are to obey rightful authority, etc. But the further question now arises, whence do we receive this conviction? From God, our Creator. Just as our whole being is an image of God, so also is our reason with its powers and inborn tendencies an image of the Divine Reason, and our cognitions which we involuntarily form in consequence of natural tendency are a participation in the Divine wisdom,--are, it may be said, a streaming in of the Divine light into the created reason. This is, indeed, not to be so understood as though we had innate ideas, but rather that the ability and inclination are inborn in us by virtue of which we spontaneously form universal concepts and principles, both in the theoretical and practical order, and easily discern that in these practical principles the will of the Supreme Director of all things manifests itself.[/quote]

[Cam42]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Dec 12 2005, 12:30 AM']I like to think alcohol is a great good. Besides the fact that Christ chose it as the sign in which He gives us His very Blood, it is used in Scripture in other places that suggest it is something blessed by God. It is definitely something acceptable to God. Certain prohibitions from wine and strong drink seem to me to indicate not that it is something unclean and wicked, but rather that it is something particularly blessed by God. The logic of its uncleanness could just as easily be applied to sex leading one to conclude that sex is dirty and evil.
The totality of the Biblical materially regarding wine leads me to the view that it is in fact a great blessing from God and a sign of His love. Certainly wine is something that can be abused, but this seems to be the case with the higher goods in life. But I would say that the approach of stigmatizing alcohol is border line satanic.

There are hundreds of passages in Scripture that make mention of wine. Considering this in its totality it is quite clear that wine is something to be appreciated as a gift of God, and respected, but not made out to be an evil drug.
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Come on L_D. You are committing a fallacy as well. You are committing a straw man.

No one has said that alcohol is an evil drug. Just that it is a drug. It has been said that the use of that drug is evil when used in a manner that is not temperate. I have shown several times that underage drinking is not in keeping with the virtue.

Alcohol is not evil, but it is also not good. It is at best a by-product of the process of fermentation. Why is wine supposed to be used in the Liturgy? Not because it is alcoholic, but because it is from the vine and because it is the work of human hands. You know this.

What does it say in the oblationes of the Mass?

Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation.
Through your goodness we have this wine to offer,
[b]fruit of the vine and work of human hands.[/b]
It will become our spiritual drink.

It says nothing about alcohol. The alcohol is an effect of the accident. The substance ceases to be wine at the consecration, anyway.

[philothea]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Dec 11 2005, 10:42 PM']But there really is a stigma attached to alcohol that I believe makes it difficult to appreciate the full import of this reality.

The prohibitionary attitude originated in a heretical, anti-Catholic world-view.
It is ironic that cultures/countries with prohibitionary attitudes tend to be those who suffer from the most alcohol abuse. Cultures which lack the alcohol taboo tend to appreciate alcohol for what it is and don't have to bother with all kinds of absurd laws.
Interestingly, it seems to me that these cultures tend to be the most family oriented as well. There is a very strong connection here, because the ultimate issue to my mind is the weakening of the family and the hostile takeover of the state as primary educator and disciplinarian of our youth.
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There may be a stigma... but no one afflicted with that mindset is participating in this discussion, as far as I have been able to see. Are you thinking of someone in particular?

My issue is with willful self-indulgent law breaking.