Is Alcohol a drug?

[Cam42]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 12 2005, 12:10 AM']horray for another ally with an opinion very close to mine!

(I would just add to your position that I think that once sed child has moved out of his house, if he has been taught temprence, he can legitimately drink in private below the drinking age as well even without a parent necessarily present...)
[right][snapback]821133[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


Underage drinking is a sin against temperance. Being taught temperance properly, one would not drink until he was legally able to do so.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Dec 11 2005, 11:10 PM']So you're not going to address the issue.  That is fine Al.  Whatever.
[right][snapback]821131[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
the reformatting issue?

back to CCC 2291, I'm starting to understand what you meant by placing alcohol in that group, so long it is placing the INTEMPERATE USE of alcohol into the same category.

I don't know, I just thought CCC 2291 was referring solely to drugs that it is immoral to use even just once without a medicinal purpose.

but it is morally wrong to excessively drink alcohol, yes. I suppose that's the main point your use of ccc 2291 was trying to get accross.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 12 2005, 12:13 AM'] the reformatting issue? 

back to CCC 2291, I'm starting to understand what you meant by placing alcohol in that group, so long it is placing the INTEMPERATE USE of alcohol into the same category. 

I don't know, I just thought CCC 2291 was referring solely to drugs that it is immoral to use even just once without a medicinal purpose.

but it is morally wrong to excessively drink alcohol, yes.  I suppose that's the main point your use of ccc 2291 was trying to get accross.
[right][snapback]821139[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Yes. Getting closer.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Dec 11 2005, 11:12 PM']Underage drinking is a sin against temperance.  Being taught temperance properly, one would not drink until he was legally able to do so.
[right][snapback]821137[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
You have not shown me that underage drinking is a sin against temperence. You have merely argued that because it is against the law (a law I have argued from the Catechism to be not a legitimate exercise of authority) then it must also be a sin against temperence. I hold that it is not, in itself, a sin against temperence.

[quote]Yes. Getting closer.[/quote]

this is what I've been arguing all along, I was merely not interpretting CCC 2291 that way....

[Era Might]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Dec 12 2005, 12:12 AM']Underage drinking is a sin against temperance.  Being taught temperance properly, one would not drink until he was legally able to do so.
[right][snapback]821137[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

There is nothing intrinsically immoral about drinking at the age of 18 (or even younger, in certain countries).

The question then becomes, must we follow every civil law to the letter?

Speaking for myself, and not for the Church, I would say that laws must be weighed. It is not sinful, for example, to cross the street outside of the crosswalk, even though it is technically illegal to do so.

So the question, in my mind, then becomes: what is the spirit of the underage drinking law? It is aimed at immaturity. The legal drinking age has shifted in the United States more than once between 18 and 21, so it is not shockingly abnormal to drink alcohol at 18. The only difference is the current law.

Provided that there is no scandal involved (eg, drinking with friends who do not have a grasp of temperance), I might agree with Al.

The only caveat I would add, as I said, is that I do not speak for the Church, and I am speaking as a private, but informed, Catholic. I would recommend you consult a Priest, for a better informed opinion.

Edited December 12, 2005 by Era Might

[philothea]

*pounce*

[quote name='Era Might' date='Dec 11 2005, 10:17 PM']The question then becomes, must we follow every civil law to the letter?

Speaking for myself, and not for the Church, I would say that laws must be weighed. It is not sinful, for example, to cross the street outside of the crosswalk, even though it is technically illegal to do so.
[right][snapback]821147[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Era! :

I keep trying to get someone who believes this to tell me: can you point me to any Church documents that uphold this stance? Everything I have seen says we are supposed to obey all moral laws, no matter how petty or inconvenient.

[photosynthesis]

Al, are your parents OK with you drinking and all?

[Era Might]

[quote name='philothea' date='Dec 12 2005, 12:20 AM']*pounce*
Era!  :

I keep trying to get someone who believes this to tell me: can you point me to any Church documents that uphold this stance?  Everything I have seen says we are supposed to obey all moral laws, no matter how petty or inconvenient.
[right][snapback]821153[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

All moral laws, yes. Not necessarilly all civil laws.

Would you go to confession for crossing at the middle of the street, instead of the crosswalk?

The authorities don't even hold us to the letter of the law. It would be a rare day indeed when a policeman stopped you for crossing in the middle of the street.

Edited December 12, 2005 by Era Might

[philothea]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Dec 11 2005, 10:21 PM']Al, are your parents OK with you drinking and all?
[right][snapback]821155[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
He said they were fine with it, though I wonder if they know about the five shots an hour.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 12 2005, 12:15 AM']You have not shown me that underage drinking is a sin against temperence.
[right][snapback]821143[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Then you have not been reading this thread. I gave a rather long response which included a quote from Romans. That is a pretty good explaination. (cf. posts #29, 34)

Underage drinking is breaking the law. It is an act of intemperance. The accepted secular definition of temperance is restraint in the use of or abstinence from alcoholic liquors.

The law says that 21 is the legal age for consumption of alcohol. To do otherwise is not being temperate in the secular understanding.

Temperance in a theological understanding is almost the same; it may be defined as the righteous habit which makes a man govern his natural appetite for pleasures of the senses in accordance with the norm prescribed by reason. In one sense temperance may be regarded as a characteristic of all the moral virtues; the moderation it enjoins is central to each of them.

Reason would dictate that we should defer to society as understood in relation to CCC #2288. With that being the case, it is plausible to say that it is a sin against temperance to drink underage.

[Aloysius]

I don't often post about family matters, (cause then Steve Urkel would come, you know) but I will say breifly they do not have a problem with it.

see my post on page 3 with the green text for the argument from interpretation of the Catechism as to why certain laws are not a legitimate excercise of authority even if they do not actually contradict the moral law.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='philothea' date='Dec 12 2005, 12:22 AM']He said they were fine with it, though I wonder if they know about the five shots an hour.
[right][snapback]821159[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
five shots an hour?

[philothea]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Dec 11 2005, 10:22 PM']All moral laws, yes. Not necessarilly all civil laws.

Would you go to confession for crossing at the middle of the street, instead of the crosswalk?

The authorities don't even hold us to the letter of the law. It would be a rare day indeed when a policeman stopped you for crossing in the middle of the street.
[right][snapback]821158[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
If I was consciously disobeying a known law for the sake of my own convenience -- and no other valid reason -- yes, I would confess that. It seems like being willful and disobedient to rightful authority.

(We covered my personal silliness in the other debate, BTW.)

[b]Edited to add[/b]: by "moral" law I mean a law which does not obligate one to do something immoral, or prevent one from doing something obligatory. I don't mean laws that cover moral issues.

Edited December 12, 2005 by philothea

[Cam42]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Dec 12 2005, 12:22 AM']All moral laws, yes. Not necessarilly all civil laws.

Would you go to confession for crossing at the middle of the street, instead of the crosswalk?

The authorities don't even hold us to the letter of the law. It would be a rare day indeed when a policeman stopped you for crossing in the middle of the street.
[right][snapback]821158[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

[url="http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2000/01/16/loc_jaywalking_ticket.html"]Jaywalking tickets[/url] can lead to good things though....good thing these cops followed the letter of the law, huh?

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Dec 11 2005, 11:23 PM']Then you have not been reading this thread.  I gave a rather long response which included a quote from Romans.  That is a pretty good explaination.  (cf. posts #29, 34)

Underage drinking is breaking the law.  It is an act of intemperance.  The accepted secular definition of temperance is restraint in the use of or abstinence from alcoholic liquors.

The law says that 21 is the legal age for consumption of alcohol.  To do otherwise is not being temperate in the secular understanding.

Temperance in a theological understanding is almost the same; it may be defined as the righteous habit which makes a man govern his natural appetite for pleasures of the senses in accordance with the norm prescribed by reason. In one sense temperance may be regarded as a characteristic of all the moral virtues; the moderation it enjoins is central to each of them.

Reason would dictate that we should defer to society as understood in relation to CCC #2288.  With that being the case, it is plausible to say that it is a sin against temperance to drink underage.
[right][snapback]821160[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

temperence can be practiced equally well without the deference to society, but a deference to right reason, conscience, and parental advice. yes, we must govern our appetites. no, we must not necessarily do it under the guidance of restrictive laws if we find them to be unjust.