homeschoolmom Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 yep He wasn't supposed to tell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted December 12, 2005 Author Share Posted December 12, 2005 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Dec 11 2005, 11:32 PM'] yep He wasn't supposed to tell [right][snapback]821069[/snapback][/right] [/quote] He tells me EVVVERRRYYYYYTTTTTHIIIINNNGGGG. How did you like those wings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Dec 11 2005, 09:33 PM']He tells me EVVVERRRYYYYYTTTTTHIIIINNNGGGG. How did you like those wings? [right][snapback]821070[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Not as much as he liked the waitstaff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted December 12, 2005 Author Share Posted December 12, 2005 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Dec 11 2005, 11:35 PM']Not as much as he liked the waitstaff... [right][snapback]821075[/snapback][/right] [/quote] As you already know, I know......the waitstaff is the best part. And did he ask THE question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 I know that's what you'd want... haha, I'm just so tired of this... anyway, if alcohol fits under the CCC's definition of drugs in CCC 2291, then you're saying that alcohol is immoral at any age except for therepeutic reasons. is that what you're saying? it really doesn't seem to fit by the context to me. expecially considering the fact that moderate drinking of alcohol is good for you, that a glass of red wine a day will lower your risk of heart disease and prolong your life. I cannot figure out how we can include "alcohol" under "drugs" in that CCC paragraph... it just doesn't follow. now, on my last post in the other thread, I proposed my catechetical position for why the alcohol age limit is not a morally obligatory law. If we are going to keep it on the position that drinking alcohol is in itself morally good, but it is the breaking of the law that is immoral, then I suppose we can go down that road. but what I'm reading from you is right, that alcohol is classified as a drug under ccc 2291, then this has become an entirely different debate as to whether alcohol in itself is immoral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Dec 11 2005, 09:36 PM']As you already know, I know......the waitstaff is the best part. And did he ask THE question? [right][snapback]821078[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Well,[i] I [/i]didn't think it was so great... I don't know... what's the question??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted December 12, 2005 Author Share Posted December 12, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius']it really doesn't seem to fit by the context to me. expecially considering the fact that moderate drinking of alcohol is good for you, that a glass of red wine a day will lower your risk of heart disease and prolong your life.[/quote] Ummmm....Al? That is a perfect example of therapeutic. However, it is one glass of red wine, not moderate drinking of said wine. [quote name='Aloysius']If we are going to keep it on the position that drinking alcohol is in itself morally good, but it is the breaking of the law that is immoral, then I suppose we can go down that road.[/quote] You can keep that. However, you have not proven that. I have given a scenario, which you have not responded to which states that alcohol is a by-product and is not an end, but rather a means to some other end. If that is the case, which is much more plausible than your non-position, then I would suggest that you are setting up some form of a straw man. Which would be yet another fallacy. So, how about refuting my position. Because my position calls into dubium your position and is a case for refutation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted December 12, 2005 Author Share Posted December 12, 2005 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Dec 11 2005, 11:38 PM']Well,[i] I [/i]didn't think it was so great... I don't know... what's the question??? [right][snapback]821082[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I cannot state the question, once it has been posed. That is the rule. If you don't remember the question, I can't tell you. Don't you just love the games that hot stuff and I play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Cam, I'm not formally debating you here... I'm just trying to discuss... is drinking for purely social reasons ever acceptable at any age in your eyes? I'm not trying to set up a straw man... I'm trying to figure out just exactly what you're saying with this "alcohol is a drug" point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Dec 11 2005, 09:46 PM']I cannot state the question, once it has been posed. That is the rule. If you don't remember the question, I can't tell you. Don't you just love the games that hot stuff and I play? [right][snapback]821092[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Say good bye to your thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Alrighty... I'm out of this thread. Please try to stay on some sort of topic without rehashing the other thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted December 12, 2005 Author Share Posted December 12, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 11 2005, 11:47 PM']Cam, I'm not formally debating you here... I'm just trying to discuss... is drinking for purely social reasons ever acceptable at any age in your eyes? I'm not trying to set up a straw man... I'm trying to figure out just exactly what you're saying with this "alcohol is a drug" point. [right][snapback]821093[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Well, I am asking you to define your position. I am trying to figure out this whole thing, because it is TOTALLY illogical. There are too many fallacies. Drinking is acceptable, if one does not attack the virtue of temperance. This would include underage drinking. If one is underage and the alcohol is used medicinally, then it is acceptable, however, that would be something like a teaspoon or so. The use of the drug alcohol by responsible, LEGAL adults is acceptable in society, if the proper criteria are met, according to societial laws and keeping the virtue of temperance fully in view. What am I saying with this alcohol is a drug? Alcohol is a drug. If it is not used properly, according to the virtue of temperance AND in accord with societal norms, then the use of alcohol is sinful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 (edited) [quote]Wine is like life to men, if you drink it in moderation. [b]What is life to a man who is without wine? It has been created to make men glad.[/b] Wine drunk in season and temperately is rejoicing of heart and gladness of soul. Wine drunk to excess is bitterness of soul, with provocation and stumbling. Drunkenness increases the anger of a fool to his injury, reducing his strength and adding wounds. [b]Do not reprove your neighbor at a banquet of wine, and do not despise him in his merrymaking; speak no word of reproach to him, and do not afflict him by making demands of him[/b]. --Sirach 31[/quote] As we see, God actively willed alcoholic wine. Edited December 12, 2005 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 quote function seems not to be wroking... I shall go to colors. CCC quotes shall be in [color=green]green! Life and physical health are precious gifts entrusted to us by God. We must take reasonable care of them, taking into account the needs of others and the common good. Concern for the health of its citizens requires that society help in the attainment of living-conditions that allow them to grow and reach maturity: food and clothing, housing, health care, basic education, employment, and social assistance.[/color] This does not follow that society make laws against private consumption of any substance based on potential health consequences. It refers to making available good health conditions, but does not give society the authority to control what is or is not consumed in a private domain [color=green][b]1902 [/b]Authority does not derive its moral legitimacy from itself. It must not behave in a despotic manner, but must act for the common good as a "moral force based on freedom and a sense of responsibility":21 A human law has the character of law to the extent that it accords with right reason, and thus derives from the eternal law. Insofar as it falls short of right reason it is said to be an unjust law, and thus has not so much the nature of law as of a kind of violence.[/color] a law does not necessarily have to require you to break the moral law before it becomes unjust, agreed? it must actually mean some positive criteria, not just the blanket "as long as it doesn't contradict moral law", right? do we agree on that point? A law must act for the common good to be a legitimate excercise of authority. If so, then that's what I would argue about the nature of underage alcohol laws based on the following: [color=green][b]1905 [/b]In keeping with the social nature of man, the good of each individual is necessarily related to the common good, which in turn can be defined only in reference to the human person: Do not live entirely isolated, having retreated into yourselves, as if you were already justified, but gather instead to seek the common good together.25 [b]1906 [/b]By common good is to be understood "the sum total of social conditions which allow people, either as groups or as individuals, to reach their fulfillment more fully and more easily."26 The common good concerns the life of all. It calls for prudence from each, and even more from those who exercise the office of authority. It consists of three essential elements: [b]1907 [/b]First, the common good presupposes respect for the person as such. In the name of the common good, public authorities are bound to respect the fundamental and inalienable rights of the human person. Society should permit each of its members to fulfill his vocation. In particular, the common good resides in the conditions for the exercise of the natural freedoms indispensable for the development of the human vocation, such as [b]"the right to act according to a sound norm of conscience and to safeguard . . . privacy,[/b] and rightful freedom also in matters of religion."27 [b]1908 [/b]Second, the common good requires the social well-being and development of the group itself. Development is the epitome of all social duties...[/color] as you will notice from the sociologists posted by Cam, underage responsible drinking is a very important developemental tool [color=green]... Certainly, it is the proper function of authority to arbitrate, in the name of the common good, between various particular interests; but it should make accessible to each [b]what is needed to lead a truly human life[/b]: food, clothing, health, work, education and culture, suitable information, the right to establish a family, and so on.28 [b]1909 [/b]Finally, the common good requires peace, that is, the stability and security of a just order. It presupposes that authority should ensure by morally acceptable means the security of society and its members. It is the basis of the right to legitimate personal and collective defense. [/color] [i][all emphasis mine][/i] A law must be seeking (not just by intention of the lawmakers, but the law itself) this common good in order to be a legitimate excercise of authority. 1909 is what would be argued in favor of drinking age laws, I suppose, the secuirity of society and its members. However, all arguments about why that is so far have nothing to do with the laws against private consumption that I argue are not a legitimate use of authority, and have everything to do with laws against drunk driving. we should be free to act according to a sound norm of conscience and to safeguard private affairs that are not immoral. of course, we have the right to our social developement, something alcoholic beverages have always been good for. and seeing as they were an important part of the life of the only perfect man to ever live, moderate drinking can be said to be part of a truly human life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted December 12, 2005 Author Share Posted December 12, 2005 reformat. It is too hard to decipher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts