how do you talk to lapsed Catholics?

[Fides_et_Ratio]

(slight venting)

My friend is dating a "catholic" guy. He claims to believe in the Eucharist but doesn't believe in anything else the Catholic Church teaches and hardly ever goes to Mass (which would mean he hardly receives the Eucharist... so I'm a little lost as to his supposed devotion there). It's frustrating.

Originally I was very frustrated/angry and suggested that he should just leave the Church (ouch, major, major pugatory points for me now... I'm repenting, though) and that they should find somewhere go (because, you see, my "christian" friend hasn't gone to church--any church--in a long time). But then I added the stipulation that it's a personal thing and that they shouldn't seek a church as a couple because they aren't married (and are far from it), but they should both develop their own faith or whatever.

Fast forward.

Anyhow, anytime I'm around the "Catholic" subject is always brought up. And immediately upon the presence of my friend's pretend-catholic boyfriend, I get extraordinarily angry (e.g., "how dare he defile Christ's Church!"). Let me also mention that this anger stems from fear for my good friend. This guy watches porn with his friends, has had pre-marital sex before (though claims he can wait if she wants to), but all his "non-denominational" Christian friends are watching porn and having sex with their boyfriend/girlfriend. And they get up and go praise God the next morning. It's sick. My brain is incapable of functioning at a charitable level when around any of them.

Aside from some serious prayer (if you're reading this, say a few!), what can I do to be a better witness and a more charitable Catholic Christian, while still holding firm to my utter disgust at their sin?

[thessalonian]

Have you read Patrick Madrid's "search and rescue"? It provides a perspective on those who have left the Church that will help you deal with your anger. Anger will not help to bring them back. I've known people who at one time or another were in such ignorance. God's spirit is working on them to bring them around. We must make ourselves avaliable to assist in this and obviously you are being called to do so with this person. But you must learn detachment. Mr. Madrid's book will help.

Blessings

[journeyman]

Thessalonian seems to have the practical solution . . .
I agree that calling him "dumb" or "lapsed" isn't going to get you far . . . maybe if you think of him as protestant . . . lead him toward the proper understanding of the relationship between spirit and world . . . and when (if) he finally makes the connections, then you can remember he was Catholic once, so all he has to do is confess, repent and he's back home

this does not sound like your regular religious ed class . . . but maybe color pictures would work to get him started . . . just kidding . . .

[phatcatholic]

its all in now you perceive the lapsed Catholic in your mind. if you think of him as an aggressor who has just attacked you, or robbed you, then you can only really focus on yourself and what he has done to you. but, if you think of him as a person who needs your help, like a person who is sick or wounded--and you are the nurse, the healer--then its easier to think less about how he makes you feel and more about what he needs and what you can do for him to help him, and nurture him, and bring him back to health.

[Hirsap]

Fides_et_ratio:

I know exactly how you feel. It can be very difficult managing charity in amongst the hypocrysy and irreverencies amongst those around you, especially those claiming to be ''Catholics'' but in ''their own way''. I commend you for your staunch attitude against indifference to this situation.

The best things to do to ensure someones conversion is to
1) Pray (even adding special prayers daily for them). Exercise the great virtue of hope as much as you can through prayer for them and everytime you think of them. Place trust in God, that He will deign through His infinite mercy to bring them to Him. Especially unite yourself with Our Lady in her sorrow for the world. Invoke her intercession always, especially through the Rosary.
2) Make sacrifice. Unite yourself in Christ's suffering for our salvation.
3) Lead by example.
and 4) Engage in friendly logical argument, insofar as this is possible. (there are people who will never agree even when you put forth the most sound reasons). Act charitably, try not to put people off but don't flatter them. Pray that you will exercise prudence in discussion in order to bear the best fruits possible.

I remember a sermon about ''ways to convert sinners'', from which I got a lot of the above. I think those 4 steps make a lot of sense, personally.

God bless,

[zunshynn]

Look at him the way Our Blessed Mother would. You're talking about a guy who God loves more than any of us can imagine. He wants desperately for him to come home. This guy is lost. That is more tragic than it is offensive.

Don't get me wrong, I can understand your anger and your frustration. But I was once one of those "dumb" catholics... I though I had it all right. People that told me I was wrong were narrowminded and rude. And I don't think that's how you're going to get him to see his error. He "thinks" he's fine.

Send him to phatmass. He'll be a faithful Catholic in no time. Although I would suggest editing your post to sound slightly more charitable... no one appreciates being called dumb. And the thing is, he's NOT dumb. He is the product of a society that puts relativism on a pedestal and glorifies sin. No one probably has every told him what Catholicism really is, so he's come to feel that his understanding of the Church is the right understanding. He's a victim, too.

[cmotherofpirl]

Spending more time talking to God about him, than talking to him about God.
Get him a copy of [i]Catholicism for Dummies[/i] and leave it laaying around where he can see it.

[tojo]

What kind of "nondenominational" Christians are they? Most I know consider it risque to watch Sesame Street....

[cmotherofpirl]

Sesame Street???

[tojo]

Yes... is the ....

[Fides_et_Ratio]

For the record. "dumb" was perhaps not the best choice on my part, but it's very true... I was once a lapsed Catholic and I'll admit that it wasn't the brightest point in my life. I was stupid. It's stupid to get caught in a contradiction and cling to your contradiction for the sake of clinging to what you want to be right.

Anyhow.

I have no idea what sort of non-denominational Christians they are-- that's why it was in quotes. They are all extraordinarily liberal. They glorify porn and sex (they think fornication is when you aren't in a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship). They go all out and have porn parties and rent hotels to have sex in. It's entirely disgusting. They also seem to have a problem with getting really drunk, very fast, all the time. And to be honest I don't understand it because I can almost guarantee you that some of them know more of the Bible than I do, so that entire situation just completely baffles me... I just don't understand how I'm on my way to Hell for "worshipping idols", but they're on the "saved" fast track to Heaven after a big porn bash/sex party.

It seriously makes me sick to my stomach.

[journeyman]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Dec 12 2005, 01:41 PM']For the record. "dumb" was perhaps not the best choice on my part, but it's very true...

They also seem to have a problem with getting really drunk, very fast, all the time. And to be honest I don't understand it because I can almost guarantee you that some of them know more of the Bible than I do, so that entire situation just completely baffles me... I just don't understand how I'm on my way to Hell for "worshipping idols", but they're on the "saved" fast track to Heaven after a big porn bash/sex party.

It seriously makes me sick to my stomach.
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I didn't think much of when it came up in the debate forum/open mic - wherever those threads ended up before they were closed . . . but Aloyisius and L_D were talking about drinking and Al proposed a different form of rosary than I have ever seen or heard of . . . with each Our Father, down a shot . . . I'm still not exactly feeling favorable toward the idea . . . but with these folks, it might work . . . but Fides, you may not like, or be suited to, that kind of approach . . . since they're "scripturally knowledgeable" Father Corapi's approach to getting Baptists to pray the rosary might work here . . . "all we're doing is praying the Gospel . . . you believe in the Gospel don't you?"

I think CMom's probably on the right track . . . a lot of prayer, a lot of opportunity to discover/discuss . . . but not a lot of push . . . this course of behavior is beyond the pale for any mainstream Christian church . . . and sooner or later, your friends are going to realize that just isn't the way

Love the sinner - hate the sin . . . and stay open to any hints / open doors that God might show you