conservativism in catholicism?

[Socrates]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Dec 11 2005, 04:32 PM']i'm not even going to get into this.
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Give 'em hell, MC Just!

[journeyman]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Dec 11 2005, 04:24 PM']I want to read that..  is that an article from a textbook?
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I don't think it is a text, a friend loaned it to me . . . I just happen to have started Chapter 3

probably available at your friendly neighborhood library (hardcover printing was 2001) (paper in 2002) Weigel's got several books out, including a biography of John Paul II, so there is a good chance the book is readily available

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

This is a bad example but: if conservatism involves racism then no catholics are not conservative, so it all depends on how you you define conservative.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 11 2005, 07:53 PM']The policies of President George W. Bush do not define Conservatism.  On many things, Bush is not conservative in the true sense.  (Particularly in his expansionist foreign policy and support of growth of government).

However, I would very strongly disagree that being a Catholic necessitates taking a liberal Democrat socialist position most political/economic issues.

In fact, most of the most faithful, orthodox Catholics I know are staunch conservatives politically.
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It's fine if you are a Catholic conservative in the political arena, so long as your political principles are dictated by the Church's moral and social parameters.

My point was that it's equally fine if you are a Catholic liberal in the political arena, again, so long as your political principles are dictated by the Church's moral and social parameters.

Once we start saying "such-and-such a political outlook is inevitable for faithful Catholics", we have transgressed the legitimate freedom enjoyed in the civil realm.

The orthodox Catholics you know may, in fact, be politically conservative. That's fine. It has nothing to do with Catholicism, or their fellow Catholics. Most of the Catholics I know pray the rosary. If another Catholic prays the Jesus prayer instead, he is no less Catholic.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Dec 11 2005, 06:15 PM']
The orthodox Catholics you know may, in fact, be politically conservative. That's fine. It has nothing to do with Catholicism, or their fellow Catholics. [right][snapback]820811[/snapback][/right]
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I'd have to disagree here. For many, our study and understanding of Catholic teaching and principles leads toward conservative political principles.
Others may disagree with this, but it is simply false and ignorant to claim that conservatism must be unrelated to one's Faith.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 11 2005, 08:29 PM']I'd have to disagree here.  For many, our study and understanding of Catholic teaching and principles leads toward conservative political principles.
Others may disagree with this, but it is simply false and ignorant to claim that conservatism must be unrelated to one's Faith.
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It has nothing to do with Catholicism as a religion. Your political outlook is not the Church's. It is yours. So long as we keep that perspective, and do not project our opinions onto the Church, or pretend the Church is a mouthpiece for the Republican or Democratic parties, there will be no problems.

Unfortunately, people of all political stripes are more than willing to claim the Church for their ideology. The Church transcends temporal politics. She is not Republican or Democrat, Liberal or Conservative. She provides moral guidelines, and leaves the concrete application to the conscience of individual believers.

This is why some conservatives get in a hissy fit when the Bishops oppose a war or capital punishment, and why some liberals get in a hissy fit when they oppose abortion or gay marriage. They think the Church is here to play the game of politics. She isn't. Her message is eternal, and cannot be tied down with any partisan entity.

Edited December 12, 2005 by Era Might

[Socrates]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Dec 11 2005, 06:34 PM']It has nothing to do with Catholicism, as a religion. Your political outlook is not the Church's. It is yours. So long as we keep that perspective, and do not project our opinions onto the Church, or pretend the Church is a mouthpiece for the Republican or Democratic parties, there will be no problems.

Unfortunately, people of all political stripes are more than willing to claim the Church for their ideology. The Church transcends temporal politics. She is not Republican or Democrat, Liberal or Conservative. She provides moral guidelines, and leaves the concrete application to the conscience of individual believers.

This is why Conservatives get in a hissy fit when the Bishops oppose a war, and why Liberals get in a hissy fit when they oppose abortion. Both camps mistake the Church for a temporal constituency.
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Understanding of Catholic principles can and does lead many to political conservatism.

Conservatism is a political philosphy.
The Republican Party is a political party.
The two are not necessarily identical.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 11 2005, 08:42 PM']Understanding of Catholic principles can and does lead many to political conservatism.

Conservatism is a political philosphy.
The Republican Party is a political party.
The two are not necessarily identical.
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Of course it CAN, and of course it DOES. This is not in dispute.

Understanding of Catholic principles can and does lead to many political systems of thought. None of them are "Catholic", as such. Catholics may support them, but these systems of thought will never be identified with the Church. As I said, she is above partisan politics. We, as laypersons, are not above partisan politics. It is our duty in the civil realm to engage them. Our vocation is distinct from that of the universal Church.

Edited December 12, 2005 by Era Might

[Lil Red]

ugh

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Dec 11 2005, 04:06 PM']The Church conserves and progresses. She conserves the Deposit of faith, but she is very liberal with new ideas, new ways of understanding and living that Deposit. An ecclesial entity which only "conserved" would never have incorporated pagan philosophy into Christianity. At the same time, an ecclesial entity which progressed with everything in every age would not have a Deposit of faith to conserve. The Church is where she should be: in Christ.
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how are we liberal with new ideas? examples please.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 11 2005, 06:42 PM']Understanding of Catholic principles can and does lead many to political conservatism.

Conservatism is a political philosphy.
The Republican Party is a political party.
The two are not necessarily identical.
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i agree

[Era Might]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Dec 11 2005, 08:51 PM']how are we liberal with new ideas? examples please.
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The word "liberal" denotes an openess. Like any virtue, a liberal attitude can be too open, just as a conservative attitude can be too closed. The Church is not opposed to new ideas. Rather, she integrates new ideas into the eternal deposit of Divine Revelation.

As a concrete example, consider Pope John Paul II's Encyclical Letter "Ut Unum Sint":

[quote]I am convinced that I have a particular responsibility in this regard, above all in acknowledging the ecumenical aspirations of the majority of the Christian Communities and in heeding the request made of me to find a way of exercising the primacy which, while in no way renouncing what is essential to its mission, is nonetheless open to a new situation.[/quote]

The Holy Father is not afraid to open the Church up to new thoughts, new ways of exercising the Apostolic primacy of St. Peter. The key to his liberality of thought, however, is a firm faith in "what is essential to its mission". This is not up for negotation.

A rigidly "conservative" Church would not be open to new forms of Roman primacy, and a licentiously "liberal" Church would not stand firm on "what is essential" to the mission of the Apostolic See.

Edited December 12, 2005 by Era Might

[N/A Gone]

we have both..and thats the beauty of it. we are not cookie cutters like many want the world to believe.

[ThomasDM]

You guys might be suprised to hear that Christian Conservatism [that includes Catholicism] is a phenominon found mostly in North America. The rest of the world, large parts of Europe, are very Catholic, but much more liberal. They accept everyone, as Jesus taught. They tend towards nonviolence, as Jesus taught. And they strive a bit more for an egalitarian society [instead of staunchly Capitalist] which Jesus taught.

Yes you will find Conservative Catholics in other parts of the world, but it really is, for the most part, isolated to the United States and parts of Canada. This is because the U.S. tends to be very Conservative.

Yes the Vatican releases many very Conservative statements, but the rest of the world has no reservations about debate within the Catholic church, possitive dissent, and sharing all sides of the argument...that's the intelligence that God gave us. Not just blindly taking everything at face value.

I've thought about it. I've been a Conservative. And I truly thought about what Jesus would do. I honestly see very little in Conservatism that he would be happy with. The views on abortion and euthanasia yes. But not the free market, the interolerance and refusal of acceptance for everyone [Jesus accepted prostitutes and people of other religions...he never forced anyone to convert or shun them if they didn't, he led by example.] I doubt he would support the death penalty, tax cuts for the rich while the poor starve, unjust wars, lying to the American people, The outsourcing of jobs to take advantage of the poor in other parts of the world.

And I'm VERY certain that he would disagree with the amount of money that Conservatives here in North America spend on weapons [especially when the money could go to the poor.]

"The U.S. military budget request for Fiscal Year 2006 is $441.6 billion. (This includes the Defense Department budget and funding for nuclear weapons activity of the Department of Energy Budget. It does not include other items such as money for the Afghan and Iraq wars ($49.1 billion for Fiscal Year 2006), or Homeland Security funding ($41.1 billion for Fiscal Year 2006), for example.)"

Had the Iraq war not occured you could take the 49.1 billion dollars for 2006 alone and feed and shelter some people in other parts of the world. What is the more noble cause?

I asked myself what Jesus would do, so I usually favour Social Democracy...or the left of the spectrum. No I'm not pro-abortion, I'm against it. But in the 6 years that the Bush Administration has been in office....it's actions have been overwhelmingly non-Christian. And abortion is still legal...after 6 years.

Peace be with all of you,

-Tom

Edited December 12, 2005 by ThomasDM

[morostheos]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='Dec 11 2005, 07:50 PM']ugh
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You can say that again!