breaking and entering

[rkwright]

[quote]-Show this aforesaid young girl her complete options: to abort the baby (and its complete emotional whallops), to give it up for adoption (and that one's complications and whallops) or to keep the baby (and the horrible financial situations that that one entails). Give her the complete facts and LET HER CHOOSE.[/quote]

This is the pro-choice agenda! Killing the baby is never a morally acceptable option. Just because life is tough NEVER justifies killing the baby.

Allowing babies to be killed is the same as legalized genocide. It is morally wrong for the state to allow people to choose to kill babies without any recourse.

[quote]By the way, even if a fetus is a physically complete human being from the moment of conception, until it can safely function outside of the mother's body, many will say that it is still a part of the woman's body and therefore her choice to deal with. It is a valid argument, as valid as any of yours.[/quote]

How about an infant? An Infant can't live without its mother (or someone taking care of it). Does that give the person taking care of it the right to choose if it lives or dies? I think not.

[quote]And if we allow it, the least we can do is make the procedure SAFE.[/quote]

If by safe you mean deadly you are correct! How the procedure is carried out doesn't even matter....

The ends never justify the means. Likewise do the means ever justify the ends? If you're end goal is killing innocents then it doesn't really ever matter how it is done.

[avemaria40]

and the worst of all is, the procedure itself is not in a sterile environment and probably not done by a professional doctor.
Think about that.
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There is some debate about whether the woman undergoing an abortion has it done by a professional doctor, as not all abortionists are. And yes, nonviolence is the answer, as well as offering help, assistance, Christian love, and compassion to these women, as many are not educated or have no say.
Overcoming hate w/hate will not do any good.

[Socrates]

[quote name='sraf' date='Dec 11 2005, 01:15 PM']First of all, it's NOT THE SAME THING.

Women [i]choose[/i] to have abortions. For whatever reason on earth, the women choose.  They don't pick a pregnant woman off the street or round up all the pregnant women and then abort their babies without the women's knowledge or consent.  That's why it's called the pro-CHOICE movement.
The death camps were not a matter of choice on the part of the Jews and other 'undesirables,' the German dictator (Hitler) decided that these people were unfit to live and ordered them out of every country he conquered.  They did not choose to be sent to death camps, nor were they even told where they were going.
It's NOT THE SAME THING, so if we're in a debate, that argument is invalid.

Second of all, instead of just turning off the gas in ONE lousy Nazi crematorium, how about working to stop Hitler? That would be a much more efficient way. (Because the Germans were so organized at that time that destroying their instruments in one camp would mean they would only call up and have those instruments replaced.)
And remember, nonviolence.
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This is flawed reasoning.
Murder is murder, whether it is freely chosen by an individual or forcibly ordered by a government.

How does the fact that people choose to kill babies have any bearing on this?

And btw, the Church nowhere teaches "non-violence" as an absolute principle. MLK and Ghandi were not Catholic.

[sraf]

[quote]This is the pro-choice agenda! Killing the baby is never a morally acceptable option. Just because life is tough NEVER justifies killing the baby. [/quote]
Excuse me. I said to give the girl considering an abortion her complete options. I didn't say "When a girl comes to a clinic seeking help put her on the anesthesia right away and get out the scapel." Abortion, adoption, or keeping the baby - NONE of these are easy. Many mothers regret giving their babies up for adoption, or have difficulty letting the baby go to another family, no matter how good the family is. Keeping the baby could ruin a young girl's life - possibly alienate her from her parents, means she may not complete high school or attend college, she may not be able to rely on the father, and therefore, must support herself and the baby by herself - all while trying to be a good mother to the baby itself! Would you say that is a wonderful start in life around age 16-18? Abortion, it has been proven, causes long-term stress and guilt. [b]All three of these have emotional repercussions and various consequences. [/b]
[quote]And btw, the Church nowhere teaches "non-violence" as an absolute principle. MLK and Ghandi were not Catholic.[/quote]
If that makes their statements invalid, then allow me to quote a source from my memory which I think you will trust:
[quote name='Jesus']You have heard it said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.  But I say to you, if one strikes you on one cheek, you will turn the other to him, and if one wishes to steal your cloak, give him your shirt as well.[/quote]
Amen.

[Guest Rick777]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Dec 11 2005, 01:08 AM']is it acceptable to break into an abortion clinic with sledgehammers and smash up all of the equipment they use to abort babies?
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no.

[crazymaine catholic]

the taking of any human life is only possible for reasons of preservation of life. when it comes to abortion, that's just not a reason. we have surgical procedures available now to help women who are experiencing medical complications during pregnancy. if it goes against the preservation of life, there's no excuse.
as for an eye for an eye, trashing equipment is never the answer. it simply lowers us to their level of violence, and no good can come of it. prayer for the poor souls of the aborted babies is a good course of action, as is praying for the souls of those involved in the abortion.

[Carolou]

I just want to say that I think comparing abortion to the Jews being killed, is very similar. I think it's a good comparison.

If you could ask the babies if they want to be murdered, I think they would say, "no" just like if you asked a Jew if they wanted to be killed, under the power of Hitler.

I think another sad part, though..is that the babies are being killed under the power of their mothers and fathers, not a stranger.

I also want to add that, I don't care how old a girl is...13, younger or older...abortion is never an okay option. It is murder. Another thing is, she can have that baby or give it up for adoption. But, it REALLY upsets me when people try and act like a baby would wreck someones life....just because they're young(the person having the baby). I think babies are a huge deal and they change your life very much, and I think it'd be very hard for a young girl to have a baby...maybe her parents wouldn't talk to her anymore and the father(of the baby) wouldn't be there...and she would have to work and not get to finish schooling, but a point I want to make is that...that isn't a waste of her life or anything even close to that, maybe that is what God wants for her, but it's just not what she would want for her life. I mean, not everyone who has sex gets pregnant. It is the will of God to give someone a baby. It's a blessing and it's a human being. When God makes life, He doesn't ask if it's okay with the mom..okay, she went through the actions to get pregnant....she has NO right to have that baby murdered.

I'm not trying to say that women or girls who have had abortions are bad people, I think most cases they're very scared people. I think it's a very sad situation. But they are infact sinning and causing murders.

I suppose to answer the question, though....it's probably not the best option to break in and smash all the stuff. But, if you did actually do that, you could save lives. Maybe you could save lives another way, though..a better way?

[crazymaine catholic]

amen carolou.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Rick777' date='Dec 16 2005, 04:11 PM']no.
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Why not?

Do machines have immortal souls made in the image and likeness of God?

[crazymaine catholic]

the issue here is not to destroy what can't be destroyed. you can never change the opinions of people by being destructive. also, it's not the materialistic things, the machines, that matter. it's changing the minds of those who practice and receive abortions that matter. as long as there are people who practice and want abortions, there will always be machines and techniques of aborting babies. destroying property, which is wrong in itself, only creates chaos and division. the goal should not be to further divide, but to unite. only by convincing those who perform and receive abortions of its intrinsic evil can we truly have any hope of eradicating abortion. violence for violence never solves anything.

[photosynthesis]

i don't think there's anything wrong with destroying things that are used as an instrument of genocide.

I think that the first response should be to pray outside abortion clinics and try to convince people to choose life... but I think that there is a way to justify destroying these instruments of death

[Socrates]

[quote name='crazymaine catholic' date='Dec 16 2005, 08:38 PM']destroying property, which is wrong in itself, only creates chaos and division.

. . .  violence for violence never solves anything.
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I'd agree with the point that in the long run, such tactics may not do much good towards ending abortion.
However, I'd disagree that there's anything at all intrinsically wrong with destroying mechanical "property" which has as its only purpose the destruction of human life.

Destroying these machines is not "violence" in the sense of destroying or damaging human life.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='sraf' date='Dec 16 2005, 06:08 PM']
If that makes their statements invalid, then allow me to quote a source from my memory which I think you will trust:
[quote name='Jesus']You have heard it said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.  But I say to you, if one strikes you on one cheek, you will turn the other to him, and if one wishes to steal your cloak, give him your shirt as well.[/quote]
Amen.
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are we talking about the same Jesus who put the scoundrels out of business by tossing their tables over and driving the geniuses out of the temple?

[sraf]

Coincidentally, yes.




But think about it: just from an objective, outsider's standpoint: if a pro-choicer went into a Church and, say, knocked over statues, threw flowers into the aisles, and spray-painted over our Lady, and aggressively resisting anyone who approached. Their statement: "These people need to be taught a lesson, their view is warped." All pro-lifers would be in a rage and demand punishment. The law would arrest this person for vandalism and disturbing the peace. The pro-choice movement would be shamed for as long as the media chose to remember it.
Now, switch:
Now a pro-lifer has just broken into an abortion clinic, breaking apart heavy machinery, throwing sterilized tools into the mud, and spray painting all over the walls, violently resisting all who tried to stop the action. Their statement: "These people need to be taught a lesson, their view is warped." The pro-life movement is ashamed. The police arrest this person on charges of vandalism and disturbing the peace.
From an outsider's point of view, they're the same. And notice how in both cases, the movement for which the attacker is trying to defend is shamed by the attacker's actions?

[avemaria40]

exactly! I think the best way we can fight abortion is through prayer, and of course, speaking against it, donating money, goods, and service to women undergoing crisis pregnancies, and also maintaining peace, because that's the only way we can be accepted