cmotherofpirl Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 did this sound like a miracle cure for a disfigured woman? Does the END justify the MEANS? Remember it would have been a [color=red]LIVE[/color] donor..... First Ever Face Transplant - Face Came from Live Donor 1999 parliamentary committee told that body parts donors "are sick, they are dying. They are living and not dead." By John-Henry Westen AMIENS, France, December 9, 2005 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Much controversy has been made over the first-ever face transplant surgery conducted in France on a 38-year-old woman Isabelle Dinoire who was attacked by a dog. Covered by the media in recent days, the surgery was performed November 26-27 in a hospital in Amiens. The controversy has revolved around two aspects of the operation and totally ignored a third - and the most disturbing of the controversies surrounding the operation. Ethicists and experts the world over have been discussing the need of the transplant recipient to take anti-rejection drugs for the rest of her life and of the psychological consequences of having a different face. Ignored however has been the fact that the face, in order to be transplanted had to come from a live donor - heart beating and still breathing. Dr. Iain Hutchison, an oral-facial surgeon at Barts and the London Hospital, told the BBC: "The transplant would have to come from a beating heart donor." Hutchison, who is chief executive of Saving Faces - the Facial Surgery Research Foundation, explained, "So, say your sister was in intensive care, you would have to agree to allow their face to be removed before the ventilator was switched off." (See the BBC coverage: [url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4484728.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4484728.stm[/url] ) Doctors in the UK are arguing that since the first two objections are easily answerable in the case of face transplants since having a horrifically disfigured face would eclipse the risks of the anti-rejection drugs and the psychological trauma of having a different face. Writing an editorial in the British Medical Journal, Dr. Peter E M Butler, a UK consultant plastic surgeon and colleagues conclude, "Now that research has made the concept of facial transplant a reality, concerns about long term immunosuppression do remain. But, instead of considering why facial transplantation cannot be justified, we may find it hard to justify why it should not be done." (see the BMJ editorial [url="http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/331/75.."]http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/331/75..[/url]. ) The reason why the issue of the need for live donors is being ignored is "brain death", a concept first invented in the late 60's in order to allow for transplantation of vital organs. While vital organ transplants have become more readily available they are by no means universally approved of by medical professionals and ethicists. Dr. John Shea, M.D. a medical consultant for Campaign Life Coalition told LifeSiteNews.com that "there is no general agreement that brain death is death." He said moreover that "criteria for establishing 'brain death' vary from England to the US and through the other countries of Europe." The Sunday Times revealed that the donor of the face was also a 38-year-old woman who had attempted suicide and was declared 'brain dead' on arrival at hospital. In 1999, when the Canadian Parliament was examining the issue of vital organ donation a Parliamentary committee heard disturbing testimony about organ harvesting and criteria for declarations of 'death'. Ruth Oliver, a Vancouver psychiatrist who was declared clinically dead in 1977 at the Kingston General Hospital after suffering internal bleeding of the brain, was there in 1999 to tell the committee she is "living testimony that people survive" hospital declarations of death not based on solid criteria. Dr. John Yun, a Richmond, B.C. oncologist, testified to the committee that organ harvesting was the impetus behind the brain death theory that has been accepted by the medical profession since 1968. In the 1980's Yun worked in an ICU unit keeping brain dead patients on life support for organ transplants. Yun who had revised his position on the matter and believed such actions were wrong, told the committee, "We must not jump to the conclusion that a dubious definition of death -- the medical hypothesis of brain death -- is in fact death." Dr. Michael Brear, a Vancouver general practitioner, who has for 40 years been raising questions about the ethics of brain death, told the committee that "The so-called 'beating-heart cadavers' who are used as donors are in fact living patients. They are sick, they are dying. They are living and not dead." Dr. Brear notes that the first successful heart transplant harvesting took place in South Africa. He suggested that racism was behind the decision to approve the procedure since the operation took place under the old apartheid system and the donor was a black woman. Dr Oliver noted, "unconscious or dying people are not people of lesser value. More and more ethicists, philosophers, and churches are rejecting brain death specifically for that reason." Indeed a 'Statement Opposing Brain Death Criteria' was published in 2000, signed by over 120 people from 19 nations, including physicans, philosophers, and theologians. Included in the list of signers were Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz of the Diocese of Lincoln in Nebraska and Bishop Robert Vasa of the Diocese of Baker in Oregon. (see the statement online [url="http://www.lifestudies.org/jp/noshihantai.htm"]http://www.lifestudies.org/jp/noshihantai.htm[/url] ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- © Copyright: LifeSiteNews.com is a production of Interim Publishing. Permission to republish is granted (with limitation*) but acknowledgement of source is *REQUIRED* (use LifeSiteNews.com). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cow of Shame Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 We were discussing this with a friend who has experience with death, and she said that with some brain dead people, you can honestly tell that there's no one there anymore. Of course, that's not terribly scientific, and you'd hate for them to make a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 I didn't initially have a problem with the woman having a face transplant -- until reading that it was from a live donor. Eww. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamweaver Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 Well, they're probably getting into the grey area of what life is. Is the person truly alive in the only thing keeping them "alive" is a machine to keep their heart beating and their lungs breathing? I'm assuming that there would be no chance of their body healing to the point of being able to sustain life after the plug is pulled. This also goes into the debate of extraordinary versus ordinary means of medical treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted December 10, 2005 Author Share Posted December 10, 2005 You are either dead or alive. Life is not grey, thats like being half pregnant. Please read the accompanying documents in the link. Donors have to be alive to be used for transplants. Their bodies are sedated and the organs are removed. Brain death is an artifical contruct developed so organs can be removed from live humans and used for other people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scardella Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 It reminds me of that movie Face/Off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prose Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Dec 10 2005, 11:24 AM']You are either dead or alive. Life is not grey, thats like being half pregnant. Please read the accompanying documents in the link. Donors have to be alive to be used for transplants. Their bodies are sedated and the organs are removed. Brain death is an artifical contruct developed so organs can be removed from live humans and used for other people. [right][snapback]819697[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I don't think so at all. Organs working does not mean a person is alive. If there is no brain activity at all, that person is dead. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that is what the Church agrees with too. I think the problem is when the brain has limited activity and they are considered brain dead. That is a problem. But if there is no brain activity, and the organs are being sustained soley by machines, I believe this is legitimate, and not considered murder at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prose Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 Another note: I think it is weird that both parties (the donor and the recipient) were suicidal and that is why they are where they are today... weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 [quote name='scardella' date='Dec 10 2005, 12:41 PM']It reminds me of that movie Face/Off... [right][snapback]819749[/snapback][/right] [/quote] It reminded me of the SNL sketch where Gerret Morris gets a face translplant from a little white girl... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted December 11, 2005 Author Share Posted December 11, 2005 [quote name='prose' date='Dec 10 2005, 01:46 PM']I don't think so at all. Organs working does not mean a person is alive. If there is no brain activity at all, that person is dead. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that is what the Church agrees with too. I think the problem is when the brain has limited activity and they are considered brain dead. That is a problem. But if there is no brain activity, and the organs are being sustained soley by machines, I believe this is legitimate, and not considered murder at all. [right][snapback]819752[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I suggest you read the link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lounge Daddy Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 [quote name='scardella' date='Dec 10 2005, 01:41 PM']It reminds me of that movie Face/Off... [right][snapback]819749[/snapback][/right] [/quote] reminds me of the Max Headroom series... Ed Carter was sold for body parts to a "body bank" while in acoma (he was classified "mostly dead") in the pilot episode and thats where this is heading right now killing the "unwanted" "unplanned" unborn, sick, coma-victims, and more... we chose who lives and who dies ... we only need to find a good enough reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmjtina Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 If they are "dead" then they aren't "live donors". They are most certainly alive. [quote]The Holy Father makes a critical restriction on the removal of organs in light of "the unique dignity of the human person," stipulating that "vital organs which occur singly in the body can be removed only after death, that is from the body from someone who is certainly dead." (4) He goes on to add that "the requirement is self-evident, since to act otherwise would mean intentionally to cause the death of the donor in disposing of his organs." (4) For vital organs to be suitable for transplantation, however, they must be living organs removed from living human beings. Moreover, as noted above, persons condemned to death as "brain dead" are not "certainly dead" but, to the contrary, are certainly alive. Thus adherence to the restrictions stipulated by the Pope and the prohibitions imposed by God Himself in the Natural Moral Law precludes the transplantation of unpaired vital organs, an act which causes the death of the "donor" and violates the fifth commandment of the divine Decalogue, "Thou shalt not kill" (Deut. 5:17). [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmjtina Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Dec 10 2005, 07:16 PM']I suggest you read the link [right][snapback]820050[/snapback][/right] [/quote] yeah, that would probably clear up "They are dead b/c no brain activity" statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddieloudog Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 I would just get a mask or summin. Why would I want anyone elses ugly mugg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamweaver Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 [quote name='eddieloudog' date='Dec 10 2005, 10:56 PM']I would just get a mask or summin. Why would I want anyone elses ugly mugg? [right][snapback]820143[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I couldn't agree with you more! You could get all sorts of masks/scarves to match your outfit and mood. Hehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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