Guns, Guns Guns

[jasJis]

_bc,

I find 39% hard to believe. I live in the South where guns are a fact of life and 25% would be high for all the people I know in the town I've lived for 30+ years. I'd like to see your source because that would be a suprise for me based on my ancedotal experience.

And my 'silly story' is facing the reality of trying to disarm the public with the fact that so many guns already exist. The only people who would disarm are law abiding citizens. In fact, the appeal of a gun would escalate because a criminal would know it would automatically be a huge intimidator. Lot's of bugulars do not carry weapons for fear of being legally shot. Remove weapons from l.a. citizens, and you remove that fear from a burgular.

Guns are a fact of American Society. And you also can't ignore the psychological factors of having a free society on people's attitudes on breaking the law. That's one of the reasons why we have so many people in prison.

[mp15]

jas, you are right. Force Americans to give up their guns and the only ones that would are the law-abiding citizens. Criminals would never give them up. It is pure fantasy to believe that you could disarm the whole world, and that is what it would take to disarm this country. Should guns become illegal there would be a huge black market for them. That doesn't even begin to address those in society that are ingenious enough to make their own guns, which can be done. Just ask the Vietnamese. Gee, I wonder how it is that criminals in England are still armed. It's against the law to own a handgun there.

_bc, you’re living in a fantasy world. I would suggest you wake up and see the real world. People with thoughts such as yours do not make the world a safer place to live. I would say quite the contrary actually.

Peace,

Marcus

[Don John of Austria]

Bc first I would realy have to disagree with your first assessment in a enclosed envionrment( such as a room) a 4 ft sword is at least as deadly as a gun, you must have never seen some one with there arm neatly chopped off. secound Law enforcement would be no safer in a world without guns than they are now unless you are saying that the world will not have gun's except for the police then the world has Guns just not freedom, third a crossbow will strick lethally and at far greater range than a pistol or shotgun so the "running away" argument is not really applicable either. What is your source for Switzerland as while I do not doubt 39% of american homes have Guns, I think your Switz figures are off.

Now as for your question about shooting an intruder( I prefer that title to trespasser) well Ice Princess answered that quite nicely.

Also where did you get this " It's amazing how more than half the countries in the world are liberal democracies, yet none seem to have populations that are as heavily armed as the US" over have the world is most certainly not governed by liberal democracies, that is absurd. Not only that but who says that liberal democracies are free in many"liberal democracies they restrict allsorts of actions right down to where ytou can pray.

[IcePrincessKRS]

Now as for your question about shooting an intruder( I prefer that title to trespasser) well Ice Princess answered that quite nicely.

Thank you Don John.

[Don John of Austria]

you are quite welcome.

[jasJis]

Cut it out you two. Keep the warm and fuzzy stuff on Open Mic.

[Don John of Austria]

Well you know what any duckhunter will tell you , nothing warms your hands like the warm barrel of a gun, so warm stuff is fine here

[Guest catholic4ever]

I'm from Texas and you can't live without a gun here! Not kidding either! lol We sold my dad's 12 gauge shotgun to our neihbor and she just put it on her shoulder and walked to her house like no biggy! Welcome to the Texan lifestyle! Yeeeha! By the way, Catholics Rock my World!

[Guest catholic4ever]

And for people out there who think that Criminals can get guns so easily with today's gun poilicy, your right under one condition. If our government were to ban guns, the criminals will still get em just like druggies get their mary jane. Thats how life is and laws are'nt going to protect us from shootings. Although, the U.S. needs a stricter policy on drugs, bigtime. Their of satanic material!

[Winchester]

I guess my post got missed.

humph

[God Conquers]

Of course we can defend ourselves and our homes, but the key here is "moderate force". I wouldn't consider a gun to be "moderate force". When a trigger is pulled someone dies. How is this moderate at all? A baseball bat is moderate.

As for APC's, Tanks, Anti-Tank Missiles, Assault rifles etc., what would we use these for? These would DEFINATELY not fall under moderate force, unless you are being attacked by other tanks etc., which is improbable.

[_bc]

I have several material possesions I would not hesitate to shoot some one over, it has nothing to do with their monetary value, but their sentemental value to me, or their very real importance in my life ---such as my car.  ( Houstons public transportation is a joke) 

This has no justification whatsoever in the quotes from the Catechism, and is decidedly immoral in my humble opinion. This is not nitpicking, because people who have guns - including yourself, if you are seriously imagining that it might be worth killing people over material possessions - are dangerous. Not just dangerous in self defence, because human beings sometimes lose control and when they do it's better that they are unarmed.

As far as the democracy statistic goes, it's a fact that I could find the source for - but my suspicion is that you're just going to redefine democracy and freedom until only Switzerland and the US are 'really' free, so I don't see the point in putting in that effort. It's peripheral to the discussion anyway, because the assertion that gun ownership is some sort of absolute neccessety for democracy and freedom is not true by default. It's something that needs to be proven, not disproven.

The 39% figure comes from Gallup, but I can't link to the data because you need to be a subscriber to access them. The Swiss data come from this article in the Canadian Medical Association Journal. It's an international comparison study by a Swiss doctor. You may be interested to know what he himself felt were the main results of the research:

Positive correlations were obtained between the rates of household gun ownership and the national rates of homicide and suicide as well as the proportions of homicides and suicides committed with a gun. There was no negative correlation between the rates of ownership and the rates of homicide and suicide committed by other means; this indicated that the other means were not used to "compensate" for the absence of guns in countries with a lower rate of gun ownership.

A similar conclusion holds for US states and regions: if gun ownership increased in the period from 1988-1997, homicide rates generally also rose significantly. People in states with high gun ownership were 2.9 times as likely to die in homicide (4.2 times as likely to die in gun related homicide and 1.6 times as likely to die in other homicide).

So widespread gun ownership does not protect you, it puts you at risk.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Hmmm.

I wish I could remember where it was that I read about the town in Utah (I think) that mandated that all citizens owned guns. (And yes, this was in the last 15 years). Anyway, it was noted that crime was practically non-existant there due to the fact that every home was required to pack heat.

Now I realize bc that I'm gonna have to find the facts and figures for you. I'll go look, I was just putting this up in case anyone else had heard of this.

Oh, and bc, lighten up. It doesn't seem like you're having much fun around these parts.

[Don John of Austria]

As far as the democracy statistic goes, it's a fact that I could find the source for - but my suspicion is that you're just going to redefine democracy and freedom until only Switzerland and the US are 'really' free, so I don't see the point in putting in that effort. It's peripheral to the discussion anyway, because the assertion that gun ownership is some sort of absolute neccessety for democracy and freedom is not true by default. It's something that needs to be proven, not disproven.

Don't you love it when people put words in your mouth, I asked you for a source on your assertion you have failed to Give it to me wow maybe because you were just pulling a number out of your ...well I will try to be polite about it.

Now as for his conclusions well that is just accurate Mexico has a much higher rate of knifeings than does the US but the gun ownership there is much less. Now as for being free, Switzerland is not really free either but it is by the Switz choice they have surrendered there freedoms freely( no pun intended) and they have the power to take there freedoms back if they so choose. finally I looked at your link it doesn't say anything aboutrates of Switz gun ownership.

as for the Gunownership ==== murders in the united states well I have seen multipule studies that showed diferant, particularly when concealled weapon laws were enacted crime in general seems to drop.

Now none of that really means squat because you are argueing from a utilitarian point of veiw and that is a view which really has no bearing on a Catholic discussion of right or wrong... people have a right to defend their own life, adequate defense of their life by neccestity of technology means they must have the right to own a firearm, if 99% of the people who got a firearm were crazed killers that would not remove the right of each individual human to protect their own life and therefore own a gun. It really doesn't matter what else you say the individual has the right to be armed for personal defense.

God counquers the comment to jasJis was specifically adressing the right of the people to defend themselves from the Government, I assure you the government has tanks and grenands and missles in abundance and will not hesitate to use them if they so desire to.

Agian I siad democracy doesn't mean freedom so I have no need to redifine democracy to include gun ownership ( although modern democratic ideas do spring directly from methods of 18th century warfare " one ballot, one bullet"

[ReformationNow]

I personally own weapons. I won't say how many because the government is reading this. However, should you attempt to break into my room, you're in a world of trouble. I specially made my own bedroom door out of 1" solid oak, with diamond plating on both sides. Three deadbolts, not counting the regular door lock. I have a 6" knife under my pillow and a shotgun by my bed. And my dog sleeps in the room beside me. Us country folk will survive. You can't starve us out, and you can't make us run. The government can have my guns...when they pry them out of my cold, dead fingers. Anybody here ever see Red Dawn?