Guns, Guns Guns

[stevil]

If people really want roads, what would prevent them from cooperating to build them voluntarily?

- A desire for a properly planned/coordinated city/town.
- A desire for everyone to pay (fairness), not just a generous few.
Disagreements over the details of the road, location, style e.g. two lane, four lane, quality of materials, use of speed bumps or not, use of roundabouts or traffic lights or..., agreement as to which company is going to be paid to do the work, agreement as to who is going to pay for ongoing maintenance.
It seems to me that city and road planning is a full time job, how can decisions be made via a large community of people deciding collaboratively with regards to the details and the payments.
 

Commercial airplanes are massively advanced pieces of equipment. No one sticks a gun in my ribs to build one. There are private roads, private bridges.

Most people can get to school/work, to supermarkets, to hospitals without needing an aeroplane, but roads are essential.
 

Common law arose under conditions far different from the modern state, and the Law Merchant arose out of cooperation, and the necessity to deal with the problems of multiple jurisdictions.

Are there any modern-time examples?

Who knows what all would happen. Prior to the welfare state, there were not hoards of people dying in the streets. In fact, poverty was declining.

In many countries where there isn't a state funded safety net, there are many beggars and thieves and many people starving to death.
Poverty is of huge concern. If a society doesn't take care of its poor then there will likely be a violent revolution. This happened in Mao's China where the landlords and the educated were killed and the poor and uneducated took over and some became doctors overnight without any pesky need for education or medical exams etc.

[dairygirl4u2c]

wonder if the popes have anything to say about this.........

 

Quote

"Private
property does not constitute for anyone an absolute or unconditioned
right. No one is justified in keeping for his exclusive use what he does
not need, when others lack necessities"

You are not making a
gift of your possessions to the poor person. You are handing over to him
what is his. For what has been given in common for the use of all, you
have arrogated to yourself. The world is given to all, and not only to
the rich." (#23)

QUOTE
Now if the earth truly was created to provide man with the
necessities of life and the tools for his own progress, it follows that every man has the right to glean what he needs from the earth. The recent Council reiterated this truth. All other rights, whatever they may be, including the rights of property and free trade,
are to be subordinated to this principle. They should in no way hinder
it; in fact, they should actively facilitate its implementation.
Redirecting these rights back to their original purpose must be regarded
as an important and urgent social duty.

QUOTE
Government officials, it is your concern to mobilize your peoples to form a more effective world solidarity, and above all to make them accept the necessary taxes on their luxuries and their wasteful expenditures, in order to bring about development and to save the peace

QUOTE
"Individual
initiative alone and the interplay of competition will not ensure
satisfactory development. We cannot proceed to increase the wealth and
power of the rich while we entrench the needy in their poverty and add
to the woes of the oppressed. Organized programs are necessary for
"directing, stimulating, coordinating, supplying and integrating" (35)
the work of individuals and intermediary organizations. It is for the public authorities
to establish and lay down the desired goals, the plans to be followed,
and the methods to be used in fulfilling them; and it is also their task
to stimulate the efforts of those involved in this common activity. "

QUOTE
�it
has always understood this right within the broader context of the
right common to all to use the goods of the whole of creation:the right to private property is subordinated to the right to common use, to the fact that goods are meant for everyone.

QUOTE
Let
the working man and the employer make free agreements, and in
particular let them agree freely as to the wages; nevertheless, there
underlies a dictate of natural justice more imperious and ancient than
any bargain between man and man, namely, that wages ought not to be insufficient to support a frugal and well-behaved wage-earner.
If through necessity or fear of a worse evil the workman accept harder
conditions because an employer or contractor will afford him no better,
he is made the victim of force and injustice.

QUOTE
What was true of the just wage for the individual is also true of international contracts: an economy of exchange can no longer be based solely on the law of free competition, a law which, in its turn, too often creates an economic dictatorship. Freedom of trade is fair only if it is subject to the demands of social justice.

QUOTE
To
labor is to exert oneself for the sake of procuring what is necessary
for the various purposes of life, and chief of all for self
preservation. Hence, a man's labor necessarily bears two notes or
characters. First, it is personal, inasmuch as the force which acts is
bound up with the personality and is the exclusive property of him who
acts, and, further, was given to him for his advantage. Secondly, man's
labor is necessary; for without the result of labor a man cannot live,
and self-preservation is a law of nature, which it is wrong to disobey.
Now, were we to consider labor merely in so far as it is personal,
doubtless it would be within the workman's right to accept any rate of
wages whatsoever; for in the same way as he is free to work or not, so
is he free to accept a small wage or even none at all. But our
conclusion must be very different if, together with the personal element
in a man's work, we consider the fact that work is also necessary for
him to live: these two aspects of his work are separable in thought, but
not in reality.

The preservation of life is the bounden duty of one and all, and to be wanting therein is a crime. It necessarily follows that each one has a natural right to procure what is required in order to live, and the poor can procure that in no other way than by what they can earn through their work.

QUOTE
property
is acquired first of all through work in order that it may serve work.
This concerns in a special way ownership of the means of production.
Isolating these means as a separate property in order to set it up in
the form of "capital"in opposition to "labour"-and even to practise
exploitation of labour-is contrary to the very nature of these means and
their possession. They cannot be possessed against labour,they cannot
even be possessed for possession's sake, because the only legitimate
title to their possession- whether in the form of private ownerhip or in
the form of public or collective ownership-is that they should serve
labour,and thus, by serving labour,that they should make possible the
achievement of the first principle of this order,namely,the universal
destination of goods and the right to common use of them.

From
this point of view,therefore,in consideration of human labour and of
common access to the goods meant for man,one cannot exclude the
socialization,in suitable conditions,of certain means of production.

QUOTE
Legislation is necessary,
but it is not sufficient for setting up true relationships of justice
and equality...If, beyond legal rules, there is really no deeper feeling
of respect for and service to others, then even equality before the law
can serve as an alibi for flagrant discrimination, continued
exploitation and actual contempt. Without a renewed education in
solidarity, an over-emphasis on equality can give rise to an
individualism in which each one claims his own rights without wishing to
be answerable for the common good.

QUOTE
In other words, the rule of free trade, taken by itself, is no longer able to govern international relations.
Its advantages are certainly evident when the parties involved are not
affected by any excessive inequalities of economic power: it is an
incentive to progress and a reward for effort. That is why industrially
developed countries see in it a law of justice. But the situation is no
longer the same when economic conditions differ too widely from country
to country: prices which are " freely n set in the market can produce
unfair results.

QUOTE
Given these conditions, it is obvious
that individual countries cannot rightly seek their own interests and
develop themselves in isolation from the rest, for the prosperity and
development of one country follows partly in the train of the prosperity
and progress of all the rest and partly produces that prosperity and
progress.

QUOTE
Interdependence must be transformed into
solidarity, grounded on the principle that the goods of creation are
meant for all. Avoiding every type of imperialism, the stronger nations
must feel responsible for the other nations, based on the equality of
all peoples and with respect for the differences.

 

[dairygirl4u2c]

last i checked, food stamps were like 100 bilion of our budget. out of a 3.5 trillion dollar budget. a couple percent of our budget.
out of a 16 trillion GDP economy.

it's not like this isnt affordable especially if we say it's given highest or thereabouts priority

[4588686]

last i checked, food stamps were like 100 bilion of our budget. out of a 3.5 trillion dollar budget. a couple percent of our budget.
out of a 16 trillion GDP economy.

it's not like this isnt affordable especially if we say it's given highest or thereabouts priority

 

 

Well, you don't understand what a genuine bad das mother clucker God the Father is.  It takes a strong man to piss all over the poor.  

[dairygirl4u2c]

it's not like food stamps are sucking us dry, as God the father had made an exampe with.

 

in fact, only ten percent of our budget is even spent on the poor.

i will hapily cite if challeneged as the info is readily available.

 

our fiscal problems are more of an accounting problem. mostly for entitlements like sociao security and medicare etc. due to teh fact that we borrow and spend so much instead of making hard decisons like raising SS payroll taxes,, retirement age, reducing payouts, reforming healthcare (USA spends 18% on health care, ""socialist" europeans only 10%, representing a trillion dollars we could save) or reducing care etc. raise taxes for general expenditures instead of borrowing against entitlements, or cut spending.

entitlments are (or at least can be) and should be made to support themselves.

 

our fiscal probs are really an accouting prolem, and a middle class problem. (not the poor)

Edited February 23, 2013 by dairygirl4u2c

[Winchester]

3 gun threads, with one having "guns" in the title three times.

 

Threadception.

[havok579257]

If people really want roads, what would prevent them from cooperating to build them voluntarily?

 

Commercial airplanes are massively advanced pieces of equipment. No one sticks a gun in my ribs to build one. There are private roads, private bridges.

 

Common law arose under conditions far different from the modern state, and the Law Merchant arose out of cooperation, and the necessity to deal with the problems of multiple jurisdictions.

 

Who knows what all would happen. Prior to the welfare state, there were not hoards of people dying in the streets. In fact, poverty was declining.

 

 

There are really not true private roads or bridges in america.  Not in the truest sense.

[Papist]

[dairygirl4u2c]

citing the same study I used in previous debates. yet those radical anti gun control folks couldn't understand. in one ear, and out the other.

 

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-april-18-2013/gun-control-whoop-de-doo