Guns, Guns Guns

[Ora et Labora]

[quote name='Socrates' date='22 April 2010 - 02:40 PM' timestamp='1271961616' post='2098110']
"I learn with great concern that [one] portion of our frontier so interesting, so important, and so exposed, should be so entirely unprovided with common fire-arms. I did not suppose any part of the United States so destitute of what is considered as among the first necessaries of a farm house."
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Jacob J. Brown (1808)

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
Thomas Jefferson

"The constitutions of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property and freedom of the press."
Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), US Founding Father, drafted the Declaration of Independence, 3rd US President
Source a letter from Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright in 1824


"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
Thomas Jefferson, Proposed Virginia Constitution, 1776

"Among the natural rights of the colonists are these: first, a right to life, secondly to liberty, thirdly to property; together with the right to defend them in the best manner they can."
Samuel Adams

"...It is always dangerous to the liberties of the people to have an army stationed among them, over which they have no control...The Militia is composed of free Citizens. There is therefore no danger of their making use of their power to the destruction of their own Rights, or suffering others to invade them."
Samuel Adams

"The said Constitution [shall] be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms."
Samuel Adams of Massachusetts -- U.S. Constitution ratification convention, 1788

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation... Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
James Madison, Federalist Papers, #46 at 243-244.

"A people armed and free forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition and is a bulwark for
the nation against foreign invasion and domestic oppression."
James Madison (1751-1836), Father of the Constitution for the USA, 4th US President

"[Tyranny cannot be safe] without a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace."
James Madison, In his autobiography

"Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense."
John Adams (1735-1826) Founding Father, 2nd US President A Defense of the Constitution of Government of the United States of America, 1788

"...but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights..."
Alexander Hamilton Federalist 29

"... of the liberty of conscience in matters of religious faith, of speech and of the press; of the trial by jury of the vicinage in civil and criminal cases; of the benefit of the writ of habeas corpus; of the right to keep and bear arms.... If these rights are well defined, and secured against encroachment, it is impossible that government should ever degenerate into tyranny."
James Monroe (1758-1831), 5th US President

"The right of self-defense never ceases. It is among the most sacred, and alike necessary to nations and to individuals."
President James Monroe (November 16, 1818)

"That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural and safe defense of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power."
Virginia Declaration of Rights 13 (June 12, 1776), drafted by George Mason

"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole body of the people except for a few public officials. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them..."
George Mason (1725-1792), drafted the Virginia Declaration of Rights, ally of James Madison and George Washington

"That the people have a Right to mass and to bear arms; that a well regulated militia composed of the Body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper natural and safe defense of a free State..."
George Mason (1725-1792), drafted the Virginia Declaration of Rights, ally of James Madison and George Washington

"Are we at least brought to such a humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in our possession and under our own direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"
Patrick Henry, 3 Elliot Debates 168-169.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
[/quote]

Yay! ! !

[Winchester]

[b] [size=3]The State has the legal right to kill me whether I initiate an act of aggression or not. All I have to do is run afoul of one of the whimsical laws passed. Did I buy a rifle with a barrel less than 16"? I deserve, according to the State, to be put into a cage or to be killed if I resist being put in said cage. In my attempt to avoid this cage in the non-self-defense manner, I can choose between someone too incompetent to become a real lawyer in the marketplace or I can impoverish myself hiring a lawyer with my own money. There might be an individual who, believing this is wrong, works for free or a reduced fee--in which case the State has (in a manner of speaking) stolen from him.

How is this just?[/size][/b]


[size=3]There is the option of paying an extra fee to the State for permission to own some barrels of the arbitrarily chosen length. How is this distinct from a bribe?[/size]

[Jesus_lol]

As a long time Knife enthusiast, user and recent collecter i find similar parallels with legislation across the USA and canada, that i find somewhat disturbing.

also, should be going for my canadian license soon, looking into getting a .22 for target shooting (most common ammo, 10$ for 500 rounds, hells yeah) and a pump action 12 guage (mossberg 500 or remington 870) eventually, for [mod]language-MIKolbe[/mod] around with, hunting, etc.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1320009798' post='2329063']
As a long time Knife enthusiast, user and recent collecter i find similar parallels with legislation across the USA and canada, that i find somewhat disturbing.

also, should be going for my canadian license soon, looking into getting a .22 for target shooting (most common ammo, 10$ for 500 rounds, hells yeah) and a pump action 12 guage (mossberg 500 or remington 870) eventually, for [mod]language-MIKolbe[/mod] around with, hunting, etc.
[/quote]
Props to you, fellow knife enthusiast. I'm also an archery enthusiast and a particle beam weapon enthusiast.

[Maximilianus]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1320009798' post='2329063']
As a long time Knife enthusiast, user and recent collecter i find similar parallels with legislation across the USA and canada, that i find somewhat disturbing.

also, should be going for my canadian license soon, looking into getting a .22 for target shooting (most common ammo, 10$ for 500 rounds, hells yeah) and a pump action 12 guage (mossberg 500 or remington 870) eventually, for [mod]language-MIKolbe[/mod] around with, hunting, etc.
[/quote]

What are the requirements/steps to getting a hunting license up there?


[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1320021475' post='2329122']
Props to you, fellow knife enthusiast. I'm also an archery enthusiast and a particle beam weapon enthusiast.


[/quote]

Are you into traditional or modern... particle beams I mean.

Archery actually. I use a Martin Stick, it's a Howard Hill style long bow. I have a Compound bow, but never use it.

Edited October 31, 2011 by Maximilianus

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Maximilianus' timestamp='1320021896' post='2329127']
Archery actually. I use a Martin Stick, it's a Howard Hill style long bow. I have a Compound bow, but never use it.
[/quote]
That's sick. I have a long bow I picked up at Cabellas for $150 or so (I think your bow is out of my price league) and then I have an epic old long bow (maybe more than 80 years old) that was given to me for free by an in-law who found it in an abandoned storage shed. It's just one of many little hobbies; I'm not any good or anything. Props to you, mate.

[Maximilianus]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1320022232' post='2329131']
That's sick. I have a long bow I picked up at Cabellas for $150 or so (I think your bow is out of my price league) and then I have an epic old long bow (maybe more than 80 years old) that was given to me for free by an in-law who found it in an abandoned storage shed. It's just one of many little hobbies; I'm not any good or anything. Props to you, mate.
[/quote]

Ha, if i had to depend on my bow for sustenance I would be hungry a lot.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Maximilianus' timestamp='1320021896' post='2329127']

What are the requirements/steps to getting a hunting license up there?
[/quote]

Lets see, i think its a two day firearms safety course, for possession and acquisition of Non restricted Firearms (rifles and shotguns) some kinda small fee and a wait period, and then you have your license for 5 years(and can keep renewing it after that.) Aside from a few longer barrelled target shooting pistols, generally handguns and "scary lookin" guns like AR15's are considered restricted. you can get a further license to get those, but im not really interested, especially with all the red tape.

besides, 12 gauge is about as much firepower as i am interested in.

i have no idea what is entailed for a hunting license. you have to get separate hunting licenses for certain game...and there is a lottery for elk hunting, but thats all i know.

[Little Flower]

My opinion is that anybody should be allowed to own a gun (with a license, obviously, and they would have to be over 21 too) but anyone with a criminal record cannot own any sort of firearms. That allows people to protect themselves but would tend to keep the guns away from the criminals. If you outlaw guns to keep them from the bad guys, the bad guys will still find a way of getting the guns, and then no one will be able to protect themselves because the good guys will be obeying the law.

plus theres nothing wrong with hunting.

[arfink]

[quote name='Little Flower' timestamp='1320031376' post='2329194']
My opinion is that anybody should be allowed to own a gun (with a license, obviously, and they would have to be over 21 too) but anyone with a criminal record cannot own any sort of firearms. That allows people to protect themselves but would tend to keep the guns away from the criminals. If you outlaw guns to keep them from the bad guys, the bad guys will still find a way of getting the guns, and then no one will be able to protect themselves because the good guys will be obeying the law.

plus theres nothing wrong with hunting.
[/quote]

Define criminal record. They shouldn't be able to take your gun for speeding. Or, I would even be willing to venture, for smoking pot. I'd say you'd need to be a convicted violent offender. Keep in mind a criminal record can have all kinds of unrelated stuff on it, as far as firearms are concerned.

I voted unrestricted, mostly because until our government and our criminals can restrict themselves then we need to be able to match their firepower in order to mount a serious defense in the event of violent oppression or the cartel showing up at your house with a small army. Not to mention that when the zombies come, you're gonna really want that machine gun. And the rocket launcher. And the landmines.

EDIT: also, just realized this is some kind of massive necrobump. OP is dated 2003? WHAT THE HECK? Appropriate for All-Hallows-Eve-Eve I guess...

Edited October 31, 2011 by arfink

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Little Flower' timestamp='1320031376' post='2329194']
My opinion is that anybody should be allowed to own a gun (with a license, obviously, and they would have to be over 21 too) but anyone with a criminal record cannot own any sort of firearms. That allows people to protect themselves but would tend to keep the guns away from the criminals. If you outlaw guns to keep them from the bad guys, the bad guys will still find a way of getting the guns, and then no one will be able to protect themselves because the good guys will be obeying the law.

plus theres nothing wrong with hunting.
[/quote]


only problem i have here is how vague you are being, or widesweeping, with regards to a criminal record. i dont see any reason to prevent a guy who smoked pot and was caught, or who speeds a lot, etc from owning a gun, providing its legal.
i would tighten that down to violent crimes, murder, rape, dealing heroin, breaking and entering, theft, etc. namely, i would change that restriction to a "relevant" criminal record.

and to be fair, i would have a time limit on some of the charges, or have some case by case method of reversing that. a guy who stole a car at 20, etc is hardly the same guy as the 65 year old who wants to shoot deer eating the vegetables on his farm

[Vincent Vega]

razzle dazzle, a novel topic. And it's not even years and years old!

[Winchester]

[quote name='Little Flower' timestamp='1320031376' post='2329194']
My opinion is that anybody should be allowed to own a gun (with a license, obviously, and they would have to be over 21 too) but anyone with a criminal record cannot own any sort of firearms.[/quote]

[quote]If you outlaw guns to keep them from the bad guys, the bad guys will still find a way of getting the guns,
[/quote]

So you've increased the incentive to have a black market.

[dairygirl4u2c]

.

[Winchester]

Here's a powder keg issue.

I'll go out on a limb and say objectively, restriction of weapons can be a right of the state for the common good. However, seeing that the human person has a right to self defense, adequate weaponry to defend against current situations (whatever they may be) must be secure. In the US, I argue citizens should have the right to most rifles and handguns, without licences or registrations.

 

Statist pig.