Why aren't there diocesan nuns/sisters?

[Paladin D]

If there can be diocesan priests, why not diocesan nuns/sisters? I'm just curious how the whole diocesan/religious priests involved, and why they are seperate; while there is only religious nuns/sisters, and no diocesan ones?

One reason I bring this up, is due to the fact that some (or many?) religious orders can't provide retirement funds for their own (that's why the USCCB has the Religious Retirement Fund), while dioceses can take care of their retired priests. Somebody I know, views it as an injustice how some (the diocesan) priests are secured, while nuns/sisters aren't (since all of them are in religious orders, thus they don't have a choice to join a diocese to be a nun/sister in the first place).

[argent_paladin]

Well, there are consecrated virgins, who are directly obedient to their bishops. Only women can be consecrated virgins.

One difference is that women (especially women religious) tend to live much longer than men and earn less. This combination means that sisters have a hard time paying for retirement costs. It is especially bad now because the average age of sisters is over 60 because of the lack of vocations. As for priests, there are many young ones who earn enough to pay for the retirement of old ones. And the problem will only get worse.

[morostheos]

Also, I suppose the same reason there aren't diocesan brothers/monks.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='morostheos' date='Dec 9 2005, 06:30 PM']Also, I suppose the same reason there aren't diocesan brothers/monks. 
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Which I don't know the reason of. I'm just curious how this evolved the way it did, historically.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='Dec 9 2005, 03:23 PM']Well, there are consecrated virgins, who are directly obedient to their bishops. Only women can be consecrated virgins.

One difference is that women (especially women religious) tend to live much longer than men and earn less. This combination means that sisters have a hard time paying for retirement costs. It is especially bad now because the average age of sisters is over 60 because of the lack of vocations. As for priests, there are many young ones who earn enough to pay for the retirement of old ones. And the problem will only get worse.
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Thanks for the info.

Let's pray that vocations increase, and find an effective solution to this current need.

[Paphnutius]

Well it is actually a complex history about why certain orders are exempt and the like.

The first instance of this that comes to mind is the Benedictine abbey of Cluny. In the donation charter from the benefactor it was spelled out that the abbey was placed under the direct patronage of Ss. Peter and Paul and was to be obedient only to Rome. This did not sit well with the current bishop as you can imagine. Regardless, the abbey appealed to Rome repeatedly and eventually the donation charter was honored as an exemption from episcopal control (nb: the bishop as local ordinary is the head of the litrugy in his diocese and has certain rights over exempt order's liturgy).

The Cistercian abbey founded at Citaeux eventually was granted this same privelege after they split from the abbey of Molesme, then everyone was grabbing while the getting was good. Monastic history about this time is a mess.

What we would understand as diocesan monks would probably be more comparable to canons regular. I am not as well informed on the orders (eg: Gilbertines, Norbertines, Augustinians, etc...), so I am not sure if they have exempt status. The canons were first introduced as a method of distinguishing between secular clergy and religious. They lived in community (depending on availbility and time in history) and prayed together as monks do. They were under the see of the bishop, however, and were often attached to a cathedral or parish. The canons were first really distinguished in the Carlongian period, but were really stepped up during the 11th-2th century I believe during the Gregorrian reform to try to cut back on clerical abuses. They wanted to make the secular priests more disciplined so first imposed the Rule of Benedict, but then later the Rule of Augustine (composed from about 3 different sources/letters)on them.

Edited December 10, 2005 by Paphnutius

[Antonius]

There are consecrated virgins today that are obedient to the local bishop, as pointed out by argent_paladin. I think I saw them mentioned on the Sydney Archdiocesan website.

Also, there were "anchoresses" (and anchorites, if they were male). As far as I know, these were women who were sealed in a room of the cathedral by the bishop and lived in a cell the rest of their lives. They were fed meals through a slip in the door and there was a window into the outside where people would come to ask the anchoresses spiritual questions.

My Episcopalian professor last semester had the class read some things by Julian of Norwich.

[daugher-of-Mary]

There are also tertiaries...St. Catherine of Sienna, for instance, was a professed religious who lived within her home instead of a convent. Go read [u]Lay Siege to Heaven[/u] by the way. Such a wonderful book.

[Micheal Odubhghail]

Initial questioner, do some research, PLEASE!!!

[Guest]

Hi Michael, welcome to Phatmass  

If you look at the top of each post, you will see the date the post was published.

The question to which you refer was posed back in 2005.  Perhaps the original question posed has been answered to the member's satisfaction............or possibly he/she might have done their own research and found their answer.

I have been on Phatmass for many years now and some things are still a mystery to me.  One can always find one's way around the Board by posing questions in Open Mic...........I have even asked questions in that forum that have nothing to do with Phatmass and received answers.

Happy Phamming!  

 

 

[Luigi]

Another reason that diocese can take care of their retired priests is that diocesan priests are secular - that is, they remain "in the world." They don't take a vow of poverty the way that most ordered religious do. So a diocesan priest can inherit money from his family, or accept regular donations from his family and keep them for himself. A diocesan priest can invest in the stock market, set up a 401k, and all that kind of stuff. Ordered religious - male or female - can't do all of that. So there's that.

[Guest]

Religious per se are marked by living in community under the evangelical counsels of poverty, chastity and obedience. To be 'diocesan' and not live in community, perhaps one should discern consecrated virginity or the eremitical life, which are not religious life per se not being called to community life nor the public vowing of poverty, chastity and obedience, insofar as I am aware.

Consecrated virginity and the eremitical life are classed as publically Consecrated Life in The Church.........as are religious.

Edited September 30, 2019 by BarbaraTherese

[Guest]

Nowadays, due to the huge fall off in vocations and other factors, some religious live alone.  It is however an exception to the rule, not a rule, and close contact is maintained with their religious order.

It is only real necessity that will find religious living on their own.  Even if there is only two of them living together, they are living in community per se.