Medical Fertility Question

[DancesforLove]

Please don't refer to me as hun.
I gave Joey-O my opinion which is what he asked for. I'm not going to argue with you. I was just pointing out that if they aren't even married or having sex then it isn't contraception.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='DancesforLove' date='Dec 8 2005, 12:30 PM']Please don't refer to me as hun.
I gave Joey-O my opinion which is what he asked for. I'm not going to argue with you. I was just pointing out that if they aren't even married or having sex then it isn't contraception.
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Apologies for the offense. Peace be with you.

[Dreamweaver]

If they're wanting to delay childbirth by a few years, why are they in a rush to get married? I mean no disrespect for the couple, and the problems with infertility and painful scarring would be a terrible cross to bear, but maybe the couple should examine what they're looking for in marriage. Marriage is about the total sharing between spouses, including openess to life.

[morostheos]

I would say ideally as a couple they should discern every month if they have grave reasons not to have children, as couples practicing NFP do. If they have grave reasons, she should take the medicine, if they don't, she should stop.

Also, I'm not an expert on Theology of the Body either, but I would think it would be ok for them to have sex while she was taking the medicine, if she is not taking it with the purpose of using it as a contraceptive. If this wasn't ok because there wasn't a possibility of having a child, what about those who are naturally infertile, or women who have passed menopause? I don't know what would be the "official" stance though.

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

[quote]They don't want children immediately, so she plans on staying on the medication for a few years.[/quote]
The purpose of her taking the medicine now is to prevent the scarring and delay the fertility during her unmarried state, but the purpose after marriage becomes delaying fertility for the sake of the couple's convenience. The Catholic teaching on marriage isn't that you must be open to children at some point, but you must be open at all points. Now if it were extremely vital to her life to be on this medicine, then it is understandable for her to be on it. However, it's not a life-threatening condition so she should go off it when she gets married.

I don't think double effect comes into play here even though the infertility condition is a secondary effect. She plans on coming off the medication eventually thus the fact that the medicine is treating her condition is secondary to the fact that she's making her decision based on when it is most convenient for her to have kids. In other words, the two effects in the double effect become flipped. The primary effect of the decision is to cause temporary infertility and the secondary effect is to allevaite her medical problem.

[quote]The priests both say that she can stay on the medication as long as she honestly plans on having kids eventually (there is a reasonable limit understood here). [/quote]
I know this is one priests opinion, but maybe she should get an opinion from another. I could hear a priest saying this because the pill is supposedly making a woman's period regular.

[Lil Red]

nevermind nothing to see here

[Lil Red]

and please, i know that this is a touchy subject for a lot of people, but let's keep the love and charity flowing, okay? thank you.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='1337 k4th0l1x0r' date='Dec 8 2005, 01:04 PM']The purpose of her taking the medicine now is to prevent the scarring and delay the fertility during her unmarried state, [/quote]

This is being open to life because she is protecting her fertility that is so far in tact.!

[quote]but the purpose after marriage becomes delaying fertility for the sake of the couple's convenience. The Catholic teaching on marriage isn't that you must be open to children at some point, but you must be open at all points.[/quote]

Excellent point. The mentality becomes contraceptive and therefore not open to life in the marriage. This cannot be moral. Your point is well taken that the couple must always be open to life and have serious reason even when using NFP to delay preganancy.

[Colleen]

[quote name='The Joey-O' date='Dec 8 2005, 02:11 AM'] They don't want children immediately, so she plans on staying on the medication for a few years. [right][snapback]816517[/snapback][/right]
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If they don't want kids right away, then maybe they should wait to get married.

[cmotherofpirl]

If I missed this point I am sorry, but what exqctly is wrong, what is she taking and why?

[N/A Gone]

you know where I stand and why

It sounds like he may be saying she has Endemtirosis (sp?). And if they have her on "medication" it would more than likely be a hormonal contraceptive (i.e. the pill).

I am thinkins she shouldn't be on it... but I do not believe that the Pill helps with female problems...as masking symptoms is NOT curing the problem. She should see a doctor that is more pro-active about actually TREATING her disease and not just giving her a chemical-abortificant band-aid.

As far as the church's position... I have nothing that will magically change his mind. But medically speaking, she would be better off looking into one of the newer surgical procedures for controlling Endemtriosis. (AND according to a new study from Yale, limiting the amount of "flow" during a woman's cycle, which the pill does, can actually speed up the scarring caused by endemitirosis... I know the heavy periods are painful and agrevating {mother and sister have this} but the membranes really need to remove themselves or they will back up and cause the endemitirosis to progress faster...I'll try to find the link to that for you.)
endometriosis is extremely painful and can cause infertility. I believe one of the treatments involves putting the woman into artificial menopause and once she finishes that treatment she should try to conceive or go on abc.they might try looking at other treatments. The best cure for endo is pregnancy, childbirth and long term nursing. The docs are guessing about the window - with endo, pregnancy is definitely not a sure thing (well it never is, right?) I'd ask if they had to make a choice of children now or no children ever, what would they choose? Why not finish the treatment and then try to conceive?

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Dec 8 2005, 01:12 PM']This is the only thing that causes me to disagree with your answer phat.[quote]They don't want children immediately, so she plans on staying on the medication for a few years.[/quote]This seems to me to make staying on the medication to prevent pregnancy a primary purpose or at least an intended purpose. This is not okay. Further the Church says that one must have "grave" reason for delaying pregnancy. If they intend to have children but not right away, what is the "grave" reason for delaying having children? Getting to know eachother? Not grave. Finances? I believe that this is rarely "grave" as the Lord provides.[right][snapback]816942[/snapback][/right][/quote]
what part of my post do you disagree with? i wasn't trying to guess what i thought their primary purpose was. i just said that if their primary purpose is to use the treatment as a contraceptive this is wrong:[list]also, i can see where, over a prolonged amount of time, one could unwittingly begin to view the medication as a type of birth control. this should be avoided. the couple should always remind themselves exactly why she is taking it, and she should quit taking it as soon as it is no longer needed for the scarring and pain, or as soon as another treatment that doesn't render infertility is found.
[/list]it appears we are in agreement


[quote name='1337 k4th0l1x0r' date='Dec 8 2005, 03:04 PM']I don't think double effect comes into play here even though the infertility condition is a secondary effect. She plans on coming off the medication eventually thus the fact that the medicine is treating her condition is secondary to the fact that she's making her decision based on when it is most convenient for her to have kids.  In other words, the two effects in the double effect become flipped.  The primary effect of the decision is to cause temporary infertility and the secondary effect is to allevaite her medical problem.[right][snapback]817089[/snapback][/right][/quote]
good point. the line about "we're not ready to have kids anyway" does imply a contraceptive intent. but, i don't think we have enough evidence at this point to definitively assert what their motivations are. some more info from joey would be helpful here.

[qfnol31]

I would like to mention now, without going into too much detail at this time, that they probably need to think about their attitude towards kids and the medication.

This may be my personal reading of the situation, but it looks as though the medication will at first work as a contraceptive, even though that's not its original intention. If this is the case, there is something that they need to probably reconsider before marrying. If they're looking to treat it as though it is a contraceptive, then they've misused the medication.

But that may just be what I see.

[morostheos]

Another thing to consider is if the medical treatment causes her to be infertile or is abortifacient as the birth control pill is. If it if abortifacient, then they definitely can't have sex while she is taking the medication.

[Balthazor]

As I see it no matter what she does she will still have a 15 year window of fetrility right? So I think that barring waiting until menopause that they should be ok. It sounds like the couple took a good route not only did they check with one priest after getting an opinion that would be desirable to even those with a "contraceptive mentatily" they went back for another opinion from a different priest to make sure that what they planned on doing was ok. I give them credit for it.
I give this couple the benefit of the doubt that they already explored other options. I mean they went out of their way to find out if their current situation was ok, so I am assuming they probably checked thoroughly about other options. I would not be shy in mentioning any other options that you hear about though .
She will have a 15 years now or fifteen years later; either way she will have the same amount of time to have kids. Unless she shortens this time span intentionally or starts using the medication for birth control I don't see a problem.
But I would like to know exactly what her condition is and what she is taking to really be able to make a better judgement.