question from a protestant

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is there any biblical basis why mary become the anti-eve??? if Eve had sinned and fall short of the glory of God... if MAry is the anti-eve would that mean mary didnt sin? mary did everything right when eve didnt?

"hmm... if your a catholic.... does it require you to do good works to be saved? or only through faith with Jesus (Im a protestant)?

because i believe we are saved through faith and not by works... because works are the fruits of the seeds of faith you have for Jesus.... if you think about it... how could good works save you....how would you know how much good works do you have to do to get to heaven and how much bad works does it take to go to hell? it is sad here that you dont know if it is enough for you to be saved....while it is simply writtn in the bible that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. ... "

rev you didnt answer my question above...

and iv got a another question... where did the rosary and other traditions came from? didnt they came from the council of priests? didnt Jesus told us to keep our tradtions and maintain our traditions? He didnt told us to invent new tradtitions.... you must admit there are tradtions which are invented after the time of Jesus.... didnt peter said not to go beyond what is written in the bible? (1 cor. 4:6)
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this is not me...so no phisy

[missionseeker]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 6 2005, 09:23 PM']

"hmm... if your a catholic.... does it require you to do good works to be saved? or only through faith with Jesus (Im a protestant)?

because i believe we are saved through faith and not by works... because works are the fruits of the seeds of faith you have for Jesus.... if you think about it... how could good works save you....how would you know how much good works do you have to do to get to heaven and how much bad works does it take to go to hell? it is sad here that you dont know if it is enough for you to be saved....while it is simply writtn in the bible that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. ... "

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this is not me...so no phisy
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I had to answer this once. A guy (at a youth conference, no one that I know) started saying things that were well... just wrong. I, the only Catholic in the place, had to say something. This question came after many others.

He said that he knew he was saved, that he was going to Heaven no matter what because he beleived that Jesus Christ was his Savior. He told me that he could shoot (and kill) me and then trn around and kill himself and go straight to Heaven. Then he quoted something (sorry, I don't remeber what exactly it was) about Faith alone. Which if I remeber correctly he twisted it to say what he wanted it to.
I told him that in James, it says "Faith without works is dead" However I di n't know then which chapter or verse. Since then, I have looked it up, because I am very likely to be in that same situation agian. Here they are.

[quote]Be doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. .... [/quote]
James 1:22

[quote]What does it profit, my brother, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to him "Go in peace,be warmed and filled," without giving him the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith, by itself, without works is dead.
But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works," Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You beleive that God is one; you do well. Even the demons beleive- and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that  faith appart from works is barren?  [/quote]
James 2:14-20

[quote]For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead[/quote]
James 2:26

and of course (because these words are straight from Jesus' mouth, )
Matthew chapter 25. The main part you want is verse 31 to the end of that chapter.

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help on the other questions?

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 6 2005, 10:23 PM']is there any biblical basis why mary become the anti-eve??? if Eve had sinned and fall short of the glory of God... if MAry is the anti-eve would that mean mary didnt sin? mary did everything right when eve didnt?[/quote]
well, we prefer "new eve" but i suppose the meaning is the same. that said, mary wasn't a [i]perfect[/i] human being. i'm sure she probably overcooked the meat one time or two. but, she was perfectly sinless. her role as the "new eve" comes via logical deduction of biblical truth. Tertullian says it best:[list]And again, lest I depart from my argumentation on the name of Adam: Why is Christ called Adam by the apostle [Paul], if as man he was not of that earthly origin? But even reason defends this conclusion, that God recovered his image and likeness by a procedure similar to that in which he had been robbed of it by the devil. It was while Eve was still a virgin that the word of the devil crept in to erect an edifice of death. Likewise through a virgin the Word of God was introduced to set up a structure of life. Thus what had been laid waste in ruin by this sex was by the same sex reestablished in salvation. Eve had believed the serpent; Mary believed Gabriel. That which the one destroyed by believing, the other, by believing, set straight" (The Flesh of Christ 17:4 [A.D. 210].

[/list]i can't really summarize it any better than he does. also see the quotes from Justin Martyr and Irenaeus at [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Full_of_Grace.asp"][b]this link[/b][/url].


[quote]"hmm... if your a catholic.... does it require you to do good works to be saved? or only through faith with Jesus (Im a protestant)?

because i believe we are saved through faith and not by works... because works are the fruits of the seeds of faith you have for Jesus.... if you think about it... how could good works save you....[/quote]
yes, we are required to do good works. that's b/c we are required to do the will of the Lord, and his will is for us to do good works. "clothe the naked," "feed the hungry," "love one another"--these are all good works that Jesus himself commands us to do. thus we are required to do them. he also says that on judgment day, each man will be judged "according to works." our eternal reward will be determined by these works. there's simply no way around it.

also, it is not merely human works that save. catholics believe that every good work is motivated by the grace of God. so, they are meritorious b/c they find their source in the Lord. man can do nothing meritorious w/o the Lord.

as for faith, we agree that Christians are saved by faith. but, catholics have a different definition of faith. it is not just merely intellectual assent. faith is obedient. faith acts. even giving intellectual assent is a good work. it is simply impossible to separate faith from works. they are two sides of the same coin. faith w/o works is dead.


[quote]how would you know how much good works do you have to do to get to heaven and how much bad works does it take to go to hell? it is sad here that you dont know if it is enough for you to be saved....while it is simply writtn in the bible that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. ... " [/quote]
there is no quota that we all have to fulfill. we are obliged only to remain faithful to the Lord. this of course means that we must [i]believe[/i] and also [i]do[/i] certain things. as long as you are faithful to him you have nothing to fear. the life of the Catholic is not one of scrupulously counting our works or paralyzing fear of impending doom. the Christian life has peaks and valleys. sometimes we are faithful to the Lord. sometimes we are not. when we are not, we reach out for his grace in the ways in which he has willed to give it to us and thus restore our relationship with Him.


[quote]rev you didnt answer my question above...

and iv got a another question... where did the rosary and other traditions came from? didnt they came from the council of priests? didnt Jesus told us to keep our tradtions and maintain our traditions? He didnt told us to invent new tradtitions.... you must admit there are tradtions which are invented after the time of Jesus.... didnt peter said not to go beyond what is written in the bible? (1 cor. 4:6)[right][snapback]814227[/snapback][/right][/quote]
well, the vast majority of the rosary comes straight from the bible. repetitive prayer is biblical. david does it many times in the psalms. the hail mary and the our father are almost word for word from the bible. the events that we meditate upon came straight from Jesus' life and are recorded in the bible. just b/c no one specifically prayed the rosary in the bible, that does not mean that there is anything wrong with it. protestants pray prayers all the time that are not in the bible. that's ok b/c the message is biblical. so it should be w/ the rosary.

sure, tradition accounts for the different biblical pieces of the rosary being placed together and called "the rosary", but the only traditions that are condemned in the bible are the ones that are contrary to the word of God. there is nothing anti-biblical about the contents of the rosary. also, believe it or not, protestants have their traditions too: going to church on wednesday, altar calls, celebrating Jesus' birth on Dec 25th, as well as particular ways of interpreting scripture are all traditions that protestants have.

there is nothing inherently wrong with tradition. it is only when it forsakes the word of God that we should be against it. so, the mere fact that something is a tradition is inconsequential. instead, you must prove that the tradition in question "makes void" the word of God (cf. Mt 15:3,6 and Mk 7:8,9,13).


i hope that helps

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Laudate_Dominum]

you rock phatty!

phatcatholic for church militant!!

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1.)is there any biblical basis why mary become the anti-eve???
1.a)if Eve had sinned and fall short of the glory of God... if MAry is the anti-eve would that mean mary didnt sin? mary did everything right when eve didnt?

2.)where did the rosary and other traditions came from?
3.)didnt they came from the council of priests?
4.)didnt Jesus told us to keep our tradtions and maintain our traditions?
-He didnt told us to invent new tradtitions.... you must admit there are tradtions which are invented after the time of Jesus

5.) didnt peter said not to go beyond what is written in the bible? (1 cor. 4:6)


anyone know a quick and easy way to get these

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isnt a scholar more than a militant? I wouldnt know Im a pathetic limbo bound no one

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 7 2005, 12:35 AM']isnt a scholar more than a militant? I wouldnt know Im a pathetic limbo bound no one
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yeah, I'm just messing with phatty. hehehe

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phatty is my hero..same with LD...I love you guys

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 7 2005, 12:38 AM']phatty is my hero..same with LD...I love you guys
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awwww shucks

feel the love people.

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dont hug me...Im just a nobody pseudo phisy..

I bet the only reason Im not a phisy yet is because they dont want me to start another reformation.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 7 2005, 12:52 AM']dont hug me...Im just a nobody pseudo phisy..

I bet the only reason Im not a phisy yet is because they dont want me to start another reformation.
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bleh.

you need your own category. Church ecumenical maybe? I dunno. None of the categories seem quite right to me.. It's ultimately up to the mysterious will of dUSt anyway, so it probably doesn't matter what I think.

But you aren't a nobody. You're such a somebody that you are currently beyond categorization!

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 7 2005, 12:34 AM']anyone know a quick and easy way to get these
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Ok here a few quick thoughts:

[quote]is there any biblical basis why mary become the anti-eve???[/quote]Well the strongest and most basic evidence of this is Mary's fiat (the "let it be done"). Where Eve said "no" to God by disobeying His commands and eating the fruit of the tree, Mary said "yes" to Him. Eve said no and helped to let sin into the world. Mary said yes and helped to bring about the savior. Eve gave Adam the fruit, Mary gave Christ a share in humanity.

Another point of this is the cross. We have the tree of life in the garden with Adam and Eve, then we have the cross (the new tree of life) with Christ the new Adam, and Mary the new eve.

[quote]a)if Eve had sinned and fall short of the glory of God... if MAry is the  anti-eve would that mean mary didnt sin? mary did everything right when eve didnt?
[/quote]So the dogma of the Immaculate Conception goes. I refer you to ineffablis Deus (sp?)

[quote]2.)where did the rosary and other traditions came from?[/quote]I have heard a lot of different explinations for this. The main two are that it came from conversi (lay brothers) who lived in monastaries but were illiterate and so could not pray the Divine Office with the choir monks. So instead they prayed the Pater Nosters (Our Fathers) and Ave Marias (Hail Marys) as their form of praying. Then there is the explination that it developed from monks who used rocks to count their prayers, then a queen used a necklace and so forth. Regardless, the tradition came from a devotion of the faithful in the Church to Our Lady. Most will say it arose from a movement of the Spirit. Traditions such as this came from popular devotions that overtime, because of the Spirit moving in it, became widespread and approved.

[quote]3.)didnt they came from the council of priests?
[/quote]If by this you mean did an eccumenical council say, "Let us make the Rosary and tell everyone to pray it." No. What usually happens in cases where popular devotions as tradition are concerned is there is a large following in the devotion and it has been proven to be from God by ways of signs or testimony. Then a council, congregation in Rome, synod, etc..., recongizes it as authentic and so forth.

[quote]didnt Jesus told us to keep our tradtions and maintain our traditions?
              -He didnt told us to invent new tradtitions....  you must admit there are tradtions which are invented after the time of Jesus
[/quote]There is a distinction between Tradition and tradition. A Tradition is such things as belief in the Immaculate Conception and the like. A tradition is like praying the Rosary or celibate priests. Tradition in the first sense never contradicts itself. Tradition in the later may change or develop as the Church passes through cultures and times (such as the tradition/discipline was not always to have celibate priests). Christ was speaking of the first sense. I have never been good at explaining the difference between Tradition and tradition, perhaps someone could give a more coherent explination.

[quote]didnt peter said not to go beyond what is written in the bible? (1 cor. 4:6)[/quote] Well Peter never says the Bible. we would do well to remember that they did not have the Bible,and did not consider what they were writing to be Scripture as they understood it. They meant the letters to be instructive and so forth, but not to have the same authority as the Pentateuch and the like. It is important to note here, that he is speaking as an Apostle and therefore in the context of an authority in the Church, not as a Scriptural authority as he would understand it.

Also we must read it in context. He is not condeming all tradition, but saying the one need not go above what they have layed down so one will not have a type of spiritual pride over another. This was not to say, "You can only do what we have said," but rather to show that one should not judge another. He is not promoting a type of minimalist approach. What he is saying is that one should follow what the Church lays down ([b]what is written here is what the Apostles as the authorities of the Church proclaim[/b]) and not seek to go overboard so one may look down upon others. Does that make sense?

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[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Dec 7 2005, 01:55 AM']bleh.

you need your own category. [b]Church ecumenical [/b]maybe? I dunno. None of the categories seem quite right to me.. It's ultimately up to the mysterious will of dUSt anyway, so it probably doesn't matter what I think.

But you aren't a nobody. You're such a somebody that you are currently beyond categorization! 
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great title, I would be honored for it!!!

do I get a cool symbol also..hehe

[missionseeker]

Somewhere in the Bible, it says

Since by man( Adam) came death
by Man(Jesus Christ) came also the Resurection (of the dead)
For as in Adam all die
even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

I don't know where it is though. I know it because it is from a peice in the "Messiah. "