U.s. And Coalition Casualties

[M.SIGGA]

I have a question. Would you support the war if none of our guys died?  Would you be more in favor of the war if we could guarantee no American casualties?  I'm not implying you feel this way M.Sigga but sometimes I think that the way liberals talk about the casualites and the soldiers is just opportunistic.

Personally, I am more supportive of the war because of our casualties.  These men are dying to make other men free.  There is something noble about their sacrifice.

I guess my anti-Iraqi war opinion has drifted into this post. My only intent for this post was to pray for dead troops and their families at Christmas time and I didn't post anything political because that would have been opportunistic and cheasy, but I'm happy to explain how I feel if you really want to know lol.

I will only defend the idea of going to war if I feel there is a just cause. Since I don't believe this was a just war, there is no way that I will ever support the original motive of going into a hot war with Iraq. I don't believe this is a hot war anymore, especially that can be compared to WWI or WWII. It has turned into a guerrilla war like Vietnam, where our soldiers do not always know who the enemy is anymore.

I support the American and Coalition efforts today that are trying to clean up this mess, and I support Bush's efforts to fix this situation as quickly as possible so American lives and Iraqi lives can return to normal.

Less casualties is always good, but it doesn't sway my opinion. If a war is just, then it must happen no matter the cost.

Please don't turn this into a debate and respect my Open Mic original post. Remember these souls and thier families in your prayers. Their families must be experiencing overwhelming pride that their sons and daughters died defending the freedom of foreign strangers, but they must also be feeling a sense of devistation and lost. Thanks.

[cmotherofpirl]

Remember our soldiers are volunteers.

The thousands who died under Iraq terrorism were not.

They ALL need our prayers.

[God Conquers]

The threat of radical islam is a serious one to the peace and security of the world.  Establishing a democratic presence in the Middle East, directly next to the most radical countries (Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Syria which all border Iraq) sends a clear message to the radical factions that we will take this threat seriously. 

I believe (however misguided one may perceive this view) that our being in Iraq will increase the freedom of other Islamic states.  I believe that since the men and women of these countries are indoctrinated into an ideolgy and have their access to information controlled that they will only be exposed the ideas of freedom and democracy and liberty by their immediate and effective presence in their midst.  If Iraq is a success (this is of course not guaranteed) then it will make it clear to the people yearning to be free (this is most evident in Iran) that democratic government that avoids radical Islamic tendencies is a better option than what they presently have.

I have to take issue with this point, although I agree that the persecuted must be liberated.

I think that to violently tear down the only secular government in the region and to replace it with a democracy dominated by muslims is a poor way to stabilize a region of growing fundamentalist zeal.

I think it sends the message that, rather than attacking countries which directly fund and participate in terrorism in the Western world (Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran) that America will attack a target of opportunity which historically has been supported by other western nations. This DOES send a message to those countries, but at the expense of a country less guilty of the support of terrorism.

As a Canadian, I do not support the war in Iraq. HOWEVER, I also do not support my country's position. It has turned it's backs on it's traditional allies and made a fool of itself to garner favor among the *expletive* French and Germans. I support the current policies of America concerning Iraq, even not letting other nations have rebuilding contracts.

Side Note: haha, that last bit sounds like American rhetoric towards Canada in 1812. "If we invade, they will FLOCK to us!" No one likes being invade. As much as I love you guys, If you invaded my home, I'd defend it.

[BLAZEr]

First of all, you are misunderstanding serious considerations.

We do not know if the Democracy that will be in place will be one of radical Islam. In fact, Democracy cannot sustain radical Islam. Islam is an ideology, it is unsustainable in Democratic form. Name one Islamic democracy.

I am sure that the families of the 61,000 residents of Baghdad who were murdered by Sadaam Hussein would disagree with your contention that the invasion of Iraq has been to their expense. The complaints you are reading in the media are biased. Most Iraqis do not want the Coalition forces to pull out. In fact just yesterday the Patriarch of the Chaldean Church strongly urged the Coalition forces to maintain their current presence in Iraq. His point was that whatever the Americans were trying to do, it was working. Things were in fact better.

Finally, I do not think that America is so simple as to think "If we Invade, they will flcck to us." That wasn't my point. My point was that Democracy, freedom, liberty, and the rule of self-government are so attractive that they will lead to real change in the Arab world.

Most people don't seem to realize this, but the rule of radical Islam is a recent phenomenon. It began in the 1970's with the Wahabbie control of the House of Saud in Saudi Arabia and the the Ayatollah Khomeni's overtrhow of the Shah in Iran. Both of these things happened in the last 30 years. And in those 30 years radical Islam has been spreading like a cancer across the world where Islam is a presence (Africa, the Middle East, Asia). With a serious effort, this tide can be turned, but I think it will take cooperation from democratic countries dedicated to freedom (here I would only put Italy, United States, Poland (and some former communist countries in eastern europe), Australia, and England)

and the Christian churches. This means that Eastern Orthodoxy is going to have to become much more evangelical in nature, much less nationalistic (which I hope will lead to the eventual reunification of the eastern and western churches) and Roman Catholicism is going to have to confront seriously the threat that Islam poses against the faith. Evangelical Chrisitan churches will also be a part of this effort.

Them's some of my thoughts.

[God Conquers]

I didn't mean to say the PEOPLE of Iraq did not benefit, but the country itself is now gone.

However, radical Islam has been around since 661 AD, when Mohammed took over control of Mecca.

I also don't believe that democracy and Islam can mix, just as democracy and Christianity do not mix all of the time.

The concepts of freedom and liberty etc. are western ideas. The onset of democracy will not make the peoples who live under dictatorships immediately want it.

The World Powers have been trying to install democracy in the Middle East since the 19th Century, and Radical Islamic governments and revolutions have toppled parliaments and constitutions almost every time. The only nations which have endured democratically are Egypt and Turkey, because these countries have been most exposed to Western cultural influence.

I also do not support this western cultural influence because, although may be democratically instituted (i.e. at the will and pleasure of the people) it is certainly not Christian and is detrimental to their societies. What am I talking about? Western Cultural influence in these places is Wealth, Power, Smut, and the pursuit of all things Hollywood. This means Birth Control, Abortion and the like.

I honestly don't know what is better: fervent islamic religion, or sinful western attitudes.

[M.SIGGA]

I really didn't want to debate this on this thread, but now I have to.

The establishment of the State of Israel is the key to the rise of radical Islam because it created a link between the hatred of Sunnis and Shiates where they could agree their territory and religion was being abused and invaded. You forgot to mention the most important factor!!!

The complaints you are reading in the media are biased. Most Iraqis do not want the Coalition forces to pull out. In fact just yesterday the Patriarch of the Chaldean Church strongly urged the Coalition forces to maintain their current presence in Iraq. His point was that whatever the Americans were trying to do, it was working. Things were in fact better.

The Chaldean Patriarch would naturally want to keep Americans around as long as possible b/c as soon as the U.S./Coalition forces leave, the Shiate majority is going to have his head on a stick.

Most people don't seem to realize this, but the rule of radical Islam is a recent phenomenon. It began in the 1970's with the Wahabbie control of the House of Saud in Saudi Arabia and the the Ayatollah Khomeni's overtrhow of the Shah in Iran. Both of these things happened in the last 30 years. And in those 30 years radical Islam has been spreading like a cancer across the world where Islam is a presence (Africa, the Middle East, Asia).

All of Islam is not the same; you haven't pointed this out and it's essential to understand the differences to understand Middle Eastern religious politics. Shiate Islam is the radical form of Islam with a primary focus soley on the written word of the Koran without consideration to context and interpretation (sort of like Sola Scriptura is for Protestants). Sunnis interpret the Koran and adjust it's teaching for everyday life. Iraq is a Shiate majority and there is no way a Shiate Muslim nation can function with a democracy because it is against the Koran - a government has to be incorporated with the people's religion in the Shiate branch of Islam. They also hate each other. Ayotollah is a Shiate leader; the Shah was Sunni. The Kurds are Shiate and Sadaam killed and tortured them because he is Sunni. AlQueda is Shiate and they hate the west because the Koran says everyone who attacks Islam (the West and Israel) is the infidel.

Turkey and Egypt are western-friendly Islamic democracies only because there is a Sunni majority - there is no powerful Ayatollah in those nations. Sunnis are somewhat tolerant of Christians, and they were tolerant of Jews until the 50's when Israel became an independant state. Christianity only flourished in parts of the Middle East with a Sunni majority. Saudi Arabia is a Shiate majority and a fake ally that is only helping America because the stability of their economy depends on American investments - their monarchy is guilty of more human rights violations than Sadaam, but we can't cut them off because too much money is involved. I hope and pray for some form of stabalized government because a democracy cannot work and will not work in Iraq.

[M.SIGGA]

Remember our soldiers are volunteers.

The thousands who died under Iraq terrorism were not.

They ALL need our prayers.

You are absolutly right and this brings back the original purpose of the thread; 6 children 2 parents were killed today in liberation efforts. They were all Islamic and didn't know Jesus so pray for their souls and for their extended family. This might look like a small number of people, but a whole family was completely wiped out. If I had pics I would post them. If this happened in America there would be national outrage. Pray for peace.

[God Conquers]

Actually, Radical Islam has been around much longer than Israel, however Israel has been the catalyst for the most recent 20th century conflicts.

Shiite muslims and Sunni Muslims will band together towards a common goal if that goal is destruction of their common enemies.

Saudi Arabians are Wahhabi Muslims, a form of Islam which is more fundamental and based on personal revelation through the Quran and the hadith (Stories and laws of Mohammed) which actually makes them a variation of Sunni rather than Shia, although they do not depend as much on ulama (muslim teachers/clerics).

Anyways, you're right, what's importa

[God Conquers]

sorry, got cut off there.

What's important now is that we band together to ask healing on those nations. They have been scarred by war, their religious differences and exploitation for several centuries, and definately need the light of Christ.

[superkiddo7]

Radical Islam? What kinda xenophobic fearmongering are you into? How is Iraq connected to Afganistan? Provide proof... if you cannot then I suggest you check your facts. To make charges without making citations is to outright lie and slander.

Bare in mind that we were the ones that put Saddam in power in the 80's and Rumsfeld met and shook hands with Saddam http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

To kill innocents for our stupid mistakes is to be murderers twice over. As for the rightiousness of mecenaries - isn't that what so called "radical islam" calls for? 9-11 anyone anyone? If you support mercenaries and soldiers then why not the 9-11 highjackers?

Moral absolutes smell of elderberries when you don't feel like living up to them, don't they?

[superkiddo7]

.

We do not know if the Democracy that will be in place will be one of radical Islam.  In fact, Democracy cannot sustain radical Islam.  Islam is an ideology, it is unsustainable in Democratic form.  Name one Islamic democracy.

You could replace the word islam and islamic with Christian and it would actually be true. Christianity is a better example of a failed ideology as a way of governing - because christianity actually had the benefit of the reformation - which Islam has not had.

It's like comparing a 2 year old to a 20 year old and saying that the twenty year old will always be better than the two year old. From that perpective it will because the two year old has yet to develop. But like any statistic it is a very skewed way of looking at the world more suited to propaganda than to the real world.

Actually I can name one islamic democracy - Turkey. Secular in government but overwhelmingly islamic.

[BLAZEr]

Are you nuts?

[M.SIGGA]

You could replace the word islam and islamic with Christian and it would actually be true. Christianity is a better example of a failed ideology as a  way of governing - because christianity actually had the benefit of the reformation - which Islam has not had.

It's like comparing a 2 year old to a 20 year old and saying that the twenty year old will always be better than the two year old. From that perpective it will because the two year old has yet to develop. But like any statistic it is a very skewed way of looking at the world more suited to propaganda than to the real world.

Actually I can name one islamic democracy - Turkey. Secular in government but overwhelmingly islamic.

Islam is based almost absolutly on works, which in itself means it cannot be compared to Christianity. The reason of past Christian holy wars and Islamic jihad are also two completely different things. How does the Reformation tie into this? You really lost me here, please clarify and explain your statement. Thanks.

[hyperdulia again]

Mary Immaculate, may thy foot which crushed the head of Satann crush all heresy.

[Good Friday]

Although the original post did not, I think this thread now belongs in the Debate Table. And no, I'm not going to add my opinion on the Iraq war because it would be futile (I've been here and done this). Just throwing in my two cents that this should be moved to the Debate Table.