Is the God of Christianity and Islam the Same?

[Circle_Master]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Jan 16 2006, 09:28 PM']Because this is not primarily a question of Revelation. It is a question of natural law, of whether man can know God apart from the Revelation of Christ, and whether he can still serve the one, true God in that ignorance.

The Catholic answer is, Yes, man can.
Well, I can understand how someone not well versed in Catholic theology might come to that impression. Nuance, unfortunately, is inevitable.
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And what happens if a religion goes beyond natural law and upholds something as 'revelation' that is in discord to God's attributes?

That is my point.

[musturde]

[quote name='Circle_Master' date='Jan 16 2006, 08:30 PM']It's been rough for a while.  Been sick.  But it's good to see you around still Musturde.[/quote]
Are you still sick? If so, I pray you get a fast recovery. It's nice to see you around too.

[quote]I wonder how many of them believe that Satan pee's in your ear if you miss your evening prayer still.
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I hope not many

[Era Might]

[quote name='Circle_Master' date='Jan 16 2006, 10:32 PM']And what happens if a religion goes beyond natural law and upholds something as 'revelation' that is in discord to God's attributes?

That is my point.
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It doesn't matter, because the question still goes back to reason. What can be known about God, and his Law, by reason alone.

That God is a Trinity of persons cannot be known by reason. That he is Love cannot be known by reason. That he parted the Red Sea cannot be known by reason.

That he is one, almighty, and omiscient can be known by reason. The 10 commandments can be known by reason.

This is the basis of serving the one, true God. Revelation leads us to a more perfect relationship, a more perfect knowledge, but it does not sever the natural relationship and knowledge God gives man, each and every man, through the dictates of reason and conscience.

Error about what God has revealed does not invalidate a correct living out of reason. Faith in Revelation is a supernatural occurence, and something left to God and each soul. Knowledge of reason, on the other hand, is a natural occurence, and it is why it remains the basis for man's search for Truth.

Edited January 17, 2006 by Era Might

[Circle_Master]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Jan 16 2006, 09:37 PM']This is the basis of serving the one, true God. Revelation leads us to a more perfect relationship, a more perfect knowledge, but it does not sever the natural relationship and knowledge God gives man, each and every man, through the dictates of reason and conscience.
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And that is where I must agree to disagree I guess. I do not believe natural revelation will sustain a man in salvation. I believe Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life in entirety. I must also leave this conversation quickly, or I will start talking about the ramifications of your opinion.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Circle_Master' date='Jan 16 2006, 10:47 PM']I believe Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life in entirety.
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As do I. I simply don't believe he is limited to a knowledge of Revelation. He gave man reason for a reason (pun intended).

Pope Pius XII sums up the Catholic outlook:

[quote]"The Church has never held the doctrine of the pagans in contempt, but purified it from all error and crowned it with Christian wisdom."[/quote]

Edited January 17, 2006 by Era Might

[Circle_Master]

[quote name='musturde' date='Jan 16 2006, 09:34 PM']Are you still sick? If so, I pray you get a fast recovery. It's nice to see you around too.
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I'd send you a PM but I'm not entitled to that privilege .

Unfortunately I will never recover. I have Crohn's disease which is an immune disorder that will slowly eat up my intestines for the rest of my life. It has taken a while adjusting to it, but I have confidence that through this God will enable me to serve Him better. As I have been studying from Lamentations lately pain is never impersonal and should not be left as 'coincidental occurances'. Sin is the cause on one level or another and it should help drive us to a closer walk with God.

I have wondered on occasion how your family is doing in Lebanon. I hope they are doing well still? I haven't heard much in the way of news in that area in quite a while since Syria started their pull-out.

[musturde]

[quote name='Circle_Master' date='Jan 16 2006, 08:50 PM']I'd send you a PM but I'm not entitled to that privilege  .

Unfortunately I will never recover.  I have Crohn's disease which is an immune disorder that will slowly eat up my intestines for the rest of my life.  It has taken a while adjusting to it, but I have confidence that through this God will enable me to serve Him better.  As I have been studying from Lamentations lately pain is never impersonal and should not be left as 'coincidental occurances'.  Sin is the cause on one level or another and it should help drive us to a closer walk with God.

I have wondered on occasion how your family is doing in Lebanon.  I hope they are doing well still?  I haven't heard much in the way of news in that area in quite a while since Syria started their pull-out.
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I'm sorry, just remember that God holds those who suffer close to him. You'll be suffering just as he suffered and he'll be by your side through it all. I'll be praying for you. My family in Lebanon is doing fine. I appreciate your concern. One of the bombing a while ago was near them but besides that, they've all been well. The political conditions are kind of crazy but very hopeful.

[Guest JeffCR07]

It is interesting to me that [i]I[/i] am being accused of not holding fast to supernatural revelation, when I am the only person in this discussion to refer to the infallible declarations of the Nicean Council, which, guided by the Holy Spirit, speaks authoritatively on the revelation of God with regards to the Trinity.

The fact is, if anyone objects to the "words" that I use when talking about the Trinity, then they are objecting to the words used by the fathers of that infallible, ecumenical Council, and we have come to an impasse. I will not leave behind the terminology that the fathers felt was so critical in being able to speak properly about the Trinity.

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jan 17 2006, 12:27 PM']It is interesting to me that [i]I[/i] am being accused of not holding fast to supernatural revelation, when I am the only person in this discussion to refer to the infallible declarations of the Nicean Council, which, guided by the Holy Spirit, speaks authoritatively on the revelation of God with regards to the Trinity.

The fact is, if anyone objects to the "words" that I use when talking about the Trinity, then they are objecting to the words used by the fathers of that infallible, ecumenical Council, and we have come to an impasse. I will not leave behind the terminology that the fathers felt was so critical in being able to speak properly about the Trinity.
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Jeff is correct in this debate. One might have different opinions about a substance but that doesn't change the substance in itself. Just because the Arians had a mistaken Trinitarian theology that doesn't mean that they did not worship that same God as the Catholics. If I have two friends and one knows me better or worse one gives a false description of me than doesn't mean I am two different people for my two different friends: one corresponding to the correct description and one corresponding to the fallacy. Its true that the Muslim view of God is wrong but they are not speaking of a different substance.

[Circle_Master]

You keep using the word substance as if it has magical properties or something. From what I gather, your definition of substance is this: Whatever similarity exists between all world religions. My own definition of substance is this: The culmination of your understanding of God based on all general revelation and all special revelation.

From your own logic it would seem appropriate to say that polytheists are also just 'misguided' whereas they are a little confused about the 'oneness' but might have the right idea.

[Theoketos]

C_M I have a tremendous respect for your academic honesty and charity.

Keep in mind what Sait Paul did and said in Acts 17:

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    Then Paul stood up at the Areopagus and said: 6 "You Athenians, I see that in every respect you are very religious.
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    For as I walked around looking carefully at your shrines, I even discovered an altar inscribed, 'To an Unknown God.' 7 What therefore you unknowingly worship, I proclaim to you.
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    The God who made the world and all that is in it, the Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in sanctuaries made by human hands,
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    nor is he served by human hands because he needs anything. Rather it is he who gives to everyone life and breath and everything.
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    He made from one 8 the whole human race to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he fixed the ordered seasons and the boundaries of their regions,
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    so that people might seek God, even perhaps grope for him and find him, though indeed he is not far from any one of us.
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    For 'In him we live and move and have our being,' 9 as even some of your poets have said, 'For we too are his offspring.'
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    Since therefore we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the divinity is like an image fashioned from gold, silver, or stone by human art and imagination.
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    God has overlooked the times of ignorance, but now he demands that all people everywhere repent
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    because he has established a day on which he will 'judge the world with justice' through a man he has appointed, and he has provided confirmation for all by raising him from the dead."
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    When they heard about resurrection of the dead, some began to scoff, but others said, "We should like to hear you on this some other time."
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    And so Paul left them.[/quote]

The desire to worship God is inscribed on every man's heart. But those that knowing reject are the ones that Paul left.

[Circle_Master]

edit: deleted for lack of clarity

Edited January 17, 2006 by Circle_Master

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='Circle_Master' date='Jan 17 2006, 10:16 AM']You keep using the word substance as if it has magical properties or something.  From what I gather, your definition of substance is this: Whatever similarity exists between all world religions.  My own definition of substance is this: The culmination of your understanding of God based on all general revelation and all special revelation.

From your own logic it would seem appropriate to say that polytheists are also just 'misguided' whereas they are a little confused about the 'oneness' but might have the right idea.
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Neither of these two definitions of "substance" are even remotely similar to what philosophers throughout all of history have meant by the term. The Catholic Encyclopedia says of susbtance: [quote]Substance, the first of Aristotle's categories, signifies being as existing in and by itself, and serving as a subject or basis for accidents and accidental changes. [/quote]. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has this to say about substance: [quote]The philosophical term ‘substance’ corresponds to the Greek ousia, which means ‘being’, transmitted via the Latin substantia, which means ‘something that stands under or grounds things’.[/quote]

[Era Might]

[quote name='Circle_Master' date='Jan 17 2006, 01:04 PM']What defines in your mind how much must be agreeable to be of a 'proper amount of substance' to be the same God?
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What can be known by reason. St. Paul expounds on this in Romans 1, recalling Wisdom 13, verse 5:

[quote]For from the greatness and the beauty of created things their original author, by analogy, is seen. [/quote]

The principle is also seen in Romans 2:

[quote]Again, if an uncircumcised man keeps the precepts of the law, will he not be considered circumcised? [/quote]

If a person is honestly ignorant of Divine Revelation, but keeps the precepts of natural law, and acknowledges of God what can be known by reason (which includes God's essential nature), then he walks justly with the God of Abraham. Reason is what the Fathers would call the "Semina Verbi", the seeds of the Word. It isn't the end of the journey, but the beginning. It is the basis for a more perfect knowledge.

Edited January 17, 2006 by Era Might

[Era Might]

And if erroneous conceptions of Revelation meant everyone worshipped a separate God, the consequence is scary. A Christian who worships a Jesus that requires Baptism would be worshipping a different Jesus from a Christian who worships a Jesus that doesn't have such a requirement. A Christian (eg, Anglican, Lutheran) who believes Jesus made himself physically present in some way in the Eucharist would be worshipping a different God from an Evangelical who does not believe Jesus made (and makes) himself physically present in any way, whether through transubstantiation or consubstantiation.