Is the God of Christianity and Islam the Same?

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Jan 16 2006, 10:44 AM']Except the Judeo God is not a Trinity.
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Umm, technicality...The Juedeo God is Trinitarian, but was not revealed as such at the time. The Jews worshiped God as He had revealed Himself. God has always been Trinitarian no? Perhaps I missed something in the discussion.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Jan 16 2006, 12:46 PM']Umm, technicality...The Juedeo God is Trinitarian, but was not revealed as such at the time. The Jews worshiped God as He had revealed Himself. God has always been Trinitarian no? Perhaps I missed something in the discussion.
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Let me clarify: The Jews do not know God as a Trinity of persons.

Of course, because Muslims and Jews worship the one, true God, they worship the Trinity. But they do not believe he is a Trinity.

Their "vision" of God is not a Trinity of persons, and hence, by Circle_Master's standards, the Jews have always been idolaters.

Edited January 16, 2006 by Era Might

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Jan 16 2006, 10:48 AM']Let me clarify: The Jews do not know God as a Trinity of persons.
[/quote] Are we speaking about Jews BC or AD? I believe this makes a difference because God has been revealed as Trinitarian and so we must include that in how one understands the "one, true God."

It seems as though some are saying that there are certain qualities that one cannot remove from God without changing the worship of God. Such as omnipotence, omniscience, etc... (as long as we understand God as "something than which nothing greater can be conceived" we are worshiping the God, not a god). But, there are qualities, namely being Trinitarian, that are not essential to the worship of God. Is that correct so far?

[Guest JeffCR07]

The Jews before Christ did not worship a substantially different God than the Jews after Christ, or the Jews today, for that matter. We worship the same God as the Jews before Christ, therefore, we worship the same God as the Jews today. The Muslims worship the same God as the Jews today. Therefore, we worship the same God as the Muslims.

Now, this thread is a wonderful example of what happens when people who do not understand the proper terminology begin debating Trinitarian theology. The people here who argue that the "Christian" and the "Muslim" or the "Christian" and the "modern Judaic" Gods are different are doing so on account of the fact that the former is Trinitarian and the latter is not.

However, what this argument is trying to do is equivocate between "persons" and "substance." It is trying to say that because the one is Trinitarian and the other is not, they are different beings - that is, different [i]substances[/i]. But in order for this to be true, it would mean that there would have to be something [i]substantially[/i] different about the Trinitarian God. But [i]that[/i] would mean that there would have to be something in the Trinitarian nature that is [i]heteroousian[/i]. This, however, is heresy. It has been explicitly defined at the Council of Nicea that the persons of the Trinity are [i]homoousius[/i] as opposed to [i]heteroousius[/i].

Therefore, because the Trinitarian persons are consubstantial - that is, of the same substance or "one in being," it is impossible to use the triune nature of God to argue a [i]substantial[/i] difference between the Judaic/Muslim God and the Christian God. If you do, you are implicitly falling into heresy of the worst kind.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[Paphnutius]

Quick question for I am ignorant of Islam: do they deny Christ as God?

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Jan 16 2006, 11:30 AM']Quick question for I am ignorant of Islam: do they deny Christ as God?
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Yes, like the Jews, they deny the divinity of Christ. However, unlike the Jews, they believe that Jesus was a prophet, and they revere Mary.

The point remains, however, that not believing in the Trinity does not mean that you believe in a [i]substantially[/i] different God, and for a Christian to say so would be to implicity deny the Nicean Council and the Trinitarian theology of the early church fathers.

Edited January 16, 2006 by JeffCR07

[musturde]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Dec 5 2005, 04:17 PM']I don't see why Muslims wouldn't be worshipping the same God we believe in.  There's only one God...  they just don't really have the fullness of understanding of who God is because they don't have the light of Christ and the Church
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Muslims believe in the same God as the Jews (the common ancestor is Abraham)... they still bomb Israel. A lot of terrorist groups hate America because we have a tendancy to never mind our own business. This is sometimes good and sometimes bad. Terrorists often use the Koran to wage "Jihad" on the U.S. but you can't be sure if the terrorists are actually dedicated Muslims or just using the religion of Islam for their political goals. (to get people to join their cause)

[musturde]

[quote name='Circle_Master' date='Jan 14 2006, 03:47 PM']My God is not one who says He will give blessing for suicide.  Nor is my God one who produces a culture of fear and blood.

My God is a God of love for His people.  He hates sin, and is completely just, and also grants mercy and grace on a people who are undeserving.  I do not live in fear of the day I die, I live with joy knowing who my creator is and knowing that He has saved me. [/quote]

The Head Scholars of Islam in North America stated together that it is a haram to partake in acts of terrorism. However, just for your arguement, I'll link it to martyrdom in Christianity. Although Christians don't kill themselves, they do believe that if they die for the faith, they'd make it to heaven. Some crazy extremists have twisted the meaning of this but that doesn't mean that that's what all Muslims believe.

[quote]So the answer is no, I do not worship the God of the muslims, nor do they worship my God.  Monotheism does NOT mean that all 'single-god' religions worship the same god.  It just means they think there is one creator.  If I made a religion that worshipped Satan as the only deity in existance and the only reason some good exists is because his power is limited in scope, is Satan also the same god Christians worship?
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Putting Satan in there makes no sense. Muslims believe this God is the God of Abraham, just as we do. Catholics believe different things about God than protestants do. Does that mean that we believe in different Gods? We have different views of the same God. The views may be flawed but the God never changes.

[Circle_Master]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jan 16 2006, 12:23 PM']The Jews before Christ did not worship a substantially different God than the Jews after Christ, or the Jews today, for that matter. We worship the same God as the Jews before Christ, therefore, we worship the same God as the Jews today. The Muslims worship the same God as the Jews today. Therefore, we worship the same God as the Muslims.

Now, this thread is a wonderful example of what happens when people who do not understand the proper terminology begin debating Trinitarian theology. The people here who argue that the "Christian" and the "Muslim" or the "Christian" and the "modern Judaic" Gods are different are doing so on account of the fact that the former is Trinitarian and the latter is not.

However, what this argument is trying to do is equivocate between "persons" and "substance." It is trying to say that because the one is Trinitarian and the other is not, they are different beings - that is, different [i]substances[/i]. But in order for this to be true, it would mean that there would have to be something [i]substantially[/i] different about the Trinitarian God. But [i]that[/i] would mean that there would have to be something in the Trinitarian nature that is [i]heteroousian[/i]. This, however, is heresy. It has been explicitly defined at the Council of Nicea that the persons of the Trinity are [i]homoousius[/i] as opposed to [i]heteroousius[/i].

Therefore, because the Trinitarian persons are consubstantial - that is, of the same substance or "one in being," it is impossible to use the triune nature of God to argue a [i]substantial[/i] difference between the Judaic/Muslim God and the Christian God. If you do, you are implicitly falling into heresy of the worst kind.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff
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You use words, but they don't make any sense. You seem to be saying that nothing about God is important except his attributes that may be clearly seen from creation (Romans 1, Psalm 19). I'd hate to believe that you are saying that though, because it would mean you discount the trinity as important to who God is. You would also discount Jesus' death as the only way for salvation.

Then you say this:
"The Jews before Christ did not worship a substantially different God than the Jews after Christ, or the Jews today, for that matter."

If everyone's eyeballs didn't shatter at the absurdity of that statement then I don't know what the point of even debating here is. Judaism today is [b]NOT[/b] judaism of the Old Testament. Ask [b]ANY[/b] reputable scholar in the entire world and they will agree with me.

Then you follow it up with this:
"We worship the same God as the Jews before Christ, therefore, we worship the same God as the Jews today."

And if people didn't gasp with the inaccuracy of the last one, you'd have to gasp at this next statement you said. Ok, everyone raise their hands now if you believe the God described in every synagogue of the world today is the same one in description and in character as the one in Christian churches. That is absurd. The Jews do not believe in a trinitarian God.

It really is amazing me in this thread how lowly most of you value the trinity. Without the trinity [i]there is no salvation[/i]. There is no propitiation of sins, there is no reconciliation with the father, there is no redemption, or substitution! If a religion worships a god where no salvation exists that [b]can not[/b] be the God that you worship! If it is, then you worship an idol!

[Circle_Master]

[quote name='musturde' date='Jan 16 2006, 05:40 PM']The Head Scholars of Islam in North America stated together that it is a haram to partake in acts of terrorism. However, just for your arguement, I'll link it to martyrdom in Christianity. Although Christians don't kill themselves, they do believe that if they die for the faith, they'd make it to heaven. Some crazy extremists have twisted the meaning of this but that doesn't mean that that's what all Muslims believe.
Putting Satan in there makes no sense. Muslims believe this God is the God of Abraham, just as we do. Catholics believe different things about God than protestants do. Does that mean that we believe in different Gods? We have different views of the same God. The views may be flawed but the God never changes.
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I used Satan as an example, not in the Judeo-Christian sense.

In response to the first paragraph just because you can make a correlation between two religions it does not implies that they are both seeking the same God. Islam clearly calls for the death of all infidels. Christianity does not.

[Era Might]

[quote]You seem to be saying that nothing about God is important except his attributes that may be clearly seen from creation (Romans 1, Psalm 19).  I'd hate to believe that you are saying that though, because it would mean you discount the trinity as important to who God is.  You would also discount Jesus' death as the only way for salvation.[/quote]

Everything about God is "important".

Nevertheless, as I said originally, we are operating under different underlying principles. The Catholic tradition places a high premium on reason and natural law. Judging from your responses, you do not share this emphasis. Which is fine, but it basically renders this discussion impossible, because first principles must be dealt with first.

[quote]It really is amazing me in this thread how lowly most of you value the trinity.  Without the trinity [i]there is no salvation[/i].  There is no propitiation of sins, there is no reconciliation with the father, there is no redemption, or substitution!  If a religion worships a god where no salvation exists that [b]can not[/b] be the God that you worship!  If it is, then you worship an idol![/quote]

Nobody here values the Holy Trinity "lowly", and your condescending attitude is uncalled for. We simply uphold the concord of faith and reason, of natural law and supernatural revelation. They do not oppose one another, and a higher form of Truth does not cancel out more fundamental, and sometimes imperfect, forms of Truth. Just as grace builds upon nature, so Revelation builds upon reason. It does not abolish it. Reason retains its legitimacy in man who has not yet come to the more perfect knowledge of Revelation in Christ, and it is exactly why St. Paul's exposition in the first chapter of Romans bears directly on Jews and Muslims, our fellow believers in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

As I said, error about what God has revealed is distinct from what we can know by reason. Muslims (and Jews, in some respects) are misinformed about what God has revealed, but he endowed his, and the knowledge of his single divine nature, in their hearts, and through this knowledge, they can serve him, until they come to the more perfect knowledge of Revelation.

Edited January 17, 2006 by Era Might

[musturde]

[quote name='Circle_Master' date='Jan 16 2006, 08:12 PM']I used Satan as an example, not in the Judeo-Christian sense.

In response to the first paragraph just because you can make a correlation between two religions it does not implies that they are both seeking the same God.  Islam clearly calls for the death of all infidels.  Christianity does not.
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Well as the Islamic Scholars by majority have stated (in North America), that is not true. That means that not all muslims believe that. Even in the middle east, not all muslims are extremists. Many muslims do not follow the Koran literally, just as many Christians, including Catholics, don't neccesarily see the whole Bible as literal. (You might argue about this but I'm putting this up just for the Catholics .) Also, both are seeking the same God because both seek the God of Abraham. They believe Muhamad was a descendant of Ishmael which, by what i've learned, is also what the Church accepts. That would mean that they do in fact worship the same God in Catholic perspective. Now to argue with you Circle, I would have to say that they claim to descend from Ishmael and worship the same God as Abraham did. Which means they worship the same God with a flawed concept of how he is. Just as Catholics see God a bit different than protestants.

By the way, long time no see, how's it going?

God Bless.

[Circle_Master]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Jan 16 2006, 09:21 PM']Nobody here values the Holy Trinity "lowly", and your condescending attitude is uncalled for. We simply uphold the concord of faith and reason, of natural law and supernatural revelation. They do not oppose one another, and a higher form of Truth does not cancel out more fundamental, and sometimes imperfect, forms of Truth. Just as grace builds upon nature, so Revelation builds upon reason. It does not abolish it. Reason retains its legitimacy in man who has not yet come to the more perfect knowledge of Revelation in Christ.
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I have seen you uphold natural law, but not supernatural revelation in this argument. Why is that?

If we are asking whether Muslims worship the same God we do, then every grain of His character is important. If we find one thing we disagree on then we worship a different God. Unfortunately I feel like I am arguing against the universalistic idea of "all religions lead to heaven."

[Era Might]

[quote name='Circle_Master' date='Jan 16 2006, 10:25 PM']I have seen you uphold natural law, but not supernatural revelation in this argument.  Why is that?
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Because this is not primarily a question of Revelation. It is a question of natural law, of whether man can know God apart from the Revelation of Christ, and whether he can still serve the one, true God in that ignorance.

The Catholic answer is, Yes, man can.

[quote]Unfortunately I feel like I am arguing against the universalistic idea of "all religions lead to heaven." [/quote]

Well, I can understand how someone not well versed in Catholic theology might come to that impression. Nuance, unfortunately, is inevitable.

Edited January 17, 2006 by Era Might

[Circle_Master]

[quote name='musturde' date='Jan 16 2006, 09:24 PM']Well as the Islamic Scholars by majority have stated (in North America), that is not true. That means that not all muslims believe that. Even in the middle east, not all muslims are extremists. Many muslims do not follow the Koran literally, just as many Christians, including Catholics, don't neccesarily see the whole Bible as literal. (You might argue about this but I'm putting this up just for the Catholics .)

By the way, long time no see, how's it going?

God Bless.
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It's been rough for a while. Been sick. But it's good to see you around still Musturde.

In clarification to this (and you are right about what you said), I am judging Islam but the words that are in the Qu'ran and also their history (expansion by blood, life by fear). The death of infidels is part of that. There have been some more post-modern scholars recently who have denied that part of it though, it is true. Of course in Islam, sometimes you need to be careful about what you read in the Qu'ran. I wonder how many of them believe that Satan pee's in your ear if you miss your evening prayer still.

Edited January 17, 2006 by Circle_Master