temporality in Heaven?

[beatty07]

Here's the question: is the life of the Saints in Heaven a temporal one? Do they experience time, or do they exist in one never-ending moment like God does?

Most seem to assume the latter, and I guess I've always leaned in that direction. But I run into people who don't like that idea and think we will experience never-ending time.

Any arguments from Scripture and Tradition for either position? Is this something about which we should maintain a humble agnosticism?

[tojo]

Oooh, this could be interesting! Smart people talk about this!

[Anastasia13]

All I know about time and heaven is that it is eternal and this:
Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, [i]each tree yielding its fruit every month.[/i] The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations

[Laudate_Dominum]

Without presenting much in the way of argumentation, but rather on my authority as an established wind bag, my conclusion is that creatures by nature must exist in a temporal mode of being, but that in glory our mode of being will be theandric, and this new status transcends space and time as we know it. Yet it will still be a diastemic existence, otherwise we would be annihilated; or one must conclude that somehow we become persons of the Godhead, which is heretical.

But if you ask whether we will experience time as we currently know it, I would say no.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Light and Truth']was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month.[/quote]

I guess they were female trees.

[qfnol31]

Aeveternity.

[Guest JeffCR07]

mi piace il tuo titolo, studi l'italiano?

Allora, non so se credo la tua argomentazione - Se Gesù ha avuto uno corpo glorio, non è vero che anche noi avremmo i corpi glorii? Se quest'è vero, le nostre esperienze saremmo dentro tempo.

Non è vero?

il tuo fratello nel Cristo,

Jeff

Edited December 4, 2005 by JeffCR07

[Guest JeffCR07]

oh man, that took me way too long to type. Off to Mass!

:

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Dec 4 2005, 06:18 PM']mi piace il tuo titolo, studi l'italiano?

Allora, non so se credo la tua argomentazione - Se Gesù ha avuto uno corpo glorio, non è vero che anche noi avremmo i corpi glorii? Se quest'è vero, le nostre esperienze saremmo dentro tempo.

Non è vero?

il tuo fratello nel Cristo,

Jeff
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si, certo, e grazie mille.

to answer your concern, history will end and time as we know it will end. I'm not saying there will be no temporality, just not as we know it. We will be glorified and given a deep participation in the Divine Life which I think renders this mode of temporality inadequate.

For support I suppose I might simply make reference to many mystical phenomenon in the lives of saints which transcend time as we know it. For example, I find it difficult to imagine a saint's perception of time who was bilocating (in light of relativity he would occupy two or more frames of reference simultaneously), or experiencing a mystical identification with Our Lady at the foot of the cross; the examples of extraordinary mystical states are manifold, and the state of glory must transcend these.
And Christ in glory actually transcends time. He is present in all of history as we speak.

Just some thoughts anyway.

btw, I love Italian, I'm just too lazy to write in it at the moment.

[Ziggamafu]

Think of our entire history and existence (space-time) as being a line with a point on each end, drawn onto a piece of paper.

This is how I picture it...

When God first created space-time, that line stretched out forever, with an infinite number of options ahead of it. Adam and Eve lived within space-time and experienced the moment; but the moment was forever.

When they fell, space-time had an end point. At that moment in eternity, all of space-time, from the moment of creation to the moment of destruction / rebirth, became "decided in an instant" by all of the humans that would ever live within it.

I believe, in this analogy, the angels and those who pass away slip out of the limits of the drawn line and into the expanse of eternity. From that perspective, they have as much "time" as they want to examine the line.

Taking it to the next level, I think that the closer they look at the line, you might say it looks like a strip of film with as many frames as you want, depending on how hard you focus on each frame. The souls in Heaven can interact with and affect the situation / environment of each frame, and can fly as fast as they want over the line to watch the "video film" at their leisure.

Get it? I thought long and hard about it, and I'm comfortable with that conclusion.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='Dec 4 2005, 06:44 PM']Think of our entire history and existence (space-time) as being a line with a point on each end, drawn onto a piece of paper.

This is how I picture it...

When God first created space-time, that line stretched out forever, with an infinite number of options ahead of it. Adam and Eve lived within space-time and experienced the moment; but the moment was forever.

When they fell, space-time had an end point. At that moment in eternity, all of space-time, from the moment of creation to the moment of destruction / rebirth, became "decided in an instant" by all of the humans that would ever live within it.

I believe, in this analogy, the angels and those who pass away slip out of the limits of the drawn line and into the expanse of eternity. From that perspective, they have as much "time" as they want to examine the line.

Taking it to the next level, I think that the closer they look at the line, you might say it looks like a strip of film with as many frames as you want, depending on how hard you focus on each frame. The souls in Heaven can interact with and affect the situation / environment of each frame, and can fly as fast as they want over the line to watch the "video film" at their leisure.

Get it? I thought long and hard about it, and I'm comfortable with that conclusion.
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Could you elaborate on that? Just curious. I tend to think that the angels and demons exist in a mode of being that is temporal, but beyond time as we know it. But only God exists in a non-temporal mode of being because He alone is without beginning and adiastemic. I also tend to think that our existence in glory will be like that of the angels as far as temporality goes. Even greater actually because all created reality will be elevated.

But God is transcendent as well as immanent so God is active in the temporal/diastemic order, and is in fact the principle of its being.

[Ziggamafu]

which part do you want me to elaborate? in my anaology, being outside of the line does not mean being infinite, but dwelling outside of time as a being created to be eternal (theosis) by being within the Body of Christ in the midst of infinity [God].

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='Dec 4 2005, 07:40 PM']which part do you want me to elaborate? in my anaology, being outside of the line does not mean being infinite, but dwelling outside of time as a being created to be eternal (theosis) by being within the Body of Christ in the midst of infinity [God].
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Sounds compatible with what I think... I'm not sure what I was hoping you'd elaborate on.. maybe we agree.

[tojo]

come on Zigg, break it down for the slow people (me).