Speaking in tongues

[tojo]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Dec 3 2005, 11:49 AM']Where does the church approve speaking in babble that nobody understands? You may want to re-investigate this statement.
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Speaking in unknown tongues is the hallmark of the Charismatic Renewal, the Church has spoken positively of the Renewal, there have been Charismatic conferences at the Vatican, Bishops appoved hundreds of Charismatic masses, and have formed Charismatic parishes.

Furthermore, the BIBLE approves.


[quote]Mark 16:17
And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in [b]new tongues[/b] ;[/quote]

[quote]1 Corinthians 14:23
So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and [b]some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind[/b] ?[/quote]

[photosynthesis]

My friend is multilingual and Pentacostal. She was at a worship service, and a lot of people were praying in tongues. These were real human languages, not just babble talk. She heard people speaking Russian, Chinese and Arabic, 3 languages she is very proficient in, and she did not hear people praising God. Instead, they were shouting out horrible curses and blasphemies.

[tojo]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Dec 3 2005, 12:23 PM']My friend is multilingual and Pentacostal.  She was at a worship service, and a lot of people were praying in tongues.  These were real human languages, not just babble talk.  She heard people speaking Russian, Chinese and Arabic, 3 languages she is very proficient in, and she did not hear people praising God.  Instead, they were shouting out horrible curses and blasphemies.
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If you friend herself was Pentecostal, she wouldn't have made that claim.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='tomasio127' date='Dec 3 2005, 01:14 PM']Speaking in unknown tongues is the hallmark of the Charismatic Renewal, the Church has spoken positively of the Renewal, there have been Charismatic conferences at the Vatican, Bishops appoved hundreds of Charismatic masses, and have formed Charismatic parishes.

Furthermore, the BIBLE approves.
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As anyone who studies liturgical documents knows that the Church leaves a lot of wiggle room. The Church states the Chant is to have a "place of pride" in the mass, but leaves room for it not to be used. That doesn't mean they like it when it is completely neglected for clap happy superficial 'praise' music.

Likewise, the charasmatic movement, as are some overly zealous tridentine folk, are 'tolerated' not to put too fine a point on it. That some members of the Catholic heirarchy like the movement does not go towards its 'approval'.

And your biblical scholarship, is unfortunately, lacking. You are assigning meaning to the scriptures that may not be there. How do you know that the intent you are trying to give the passages is the intent that the author had in mind?

I'm sorry if this comes across as 'attacking' but inquiring minds want to know.

[Cre8d4Youth]

I want to be very careful in responding to this as I'm still fairly new to the PM community. Tongues is a hot issue in any church, not just the Pentecostal or Catholic one. Do I believe that I can induce it...personally no. I also refute the Pentecostal claim that I have not been truely baptized in the Holy Spirit until I do speak in tongues. I'm sorry, but the Spirit has granted me far more gifts than just that of speaking in languages I do not know. If God feels that I need that gift in a specific instance He knows I am open to it though. I do not seek it. In fact, the only supernatural miracle I seek from God is to be able to walk on water...I'm about sick of wet shoes when I step in puddles! :


[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Dec 3 2005, 11:03 AM']If God wanted to communicate with us, I think HE would use a language someone could understand. I think the babble is simply self -induced
expectations.
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I hope I don't sound to brash but Paul specifically states that if we are speaking in the tongues of angels ( A language I assume you, and KNOW I don't understand) then we are to pray for the gift of interpretation so as to know what He speaks to and through us. That sounds emphatically like He will not always speak to me in English. That could explain why I always misunderstand His "No, not right now" for "Sure, go ahead!!!"

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Dec 3 2005, 11:18 AM']Making silly sounds that no one can understand is not prayer.
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You make far too much of a judgement call imo. Silly to you might be edifying for some people. I feel that was uncalled for...but just my opinion on the matter. Besides, God and GOD alone knows their hearts, let HIM make the call as to what is silly and what is not.
I remember once a story of a man who gave a prayer from the heart in church. At the end of church an elderly lady approached the young man and told him, "I didn't think much of your prayer, sir."
"That's ok," he replied. "I wasn't talking to you."

[quote name='tomasio127' date='Dec 3 2005, 12:14 PM']Speaking in unknown tongues is the hallmark of the Charismatic Renewal
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And in unknown is only one of the tongues in the Bible. There are three types of speaking in tounges if you read all accounts in the Bible. The first recorded happening the disciples spoke to a community, and each heard them in their own tongue. I'm not 100% sure, but it always came across to me as they spoke normally, but everyone heard them in their own home language. (In that manner, you would never know if you were speaking in tongues.) In another instance it says how we can speak in languages unknown and unstudied to us. And finally in the "tongues of angels." Now, I don't know for sure, but I don't think that angels spoke Latin or Greek, but have their own language. Just an opinion though. THIS is the language Paul tells us to pray for the gift of interpretation for, so as to know what we speak! And it is for our own edification, our own building up. It is not for others to tell us we are speaking silly noises.


I'm done, I hope I didn't ruffle feather too much.

[tojo]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Dec 3 2005, 01:01 PM']As anyone who studies liturgical documents knows that the Church leaves a lot of wiggle room. The Church states the Chant is to have a "place of pride" in the mass, but leaves room for it not to be used. That doesn't mean they like it when it is completely neglected for clap happy superficial 'praise' music.

Likewise, the charasmatic movement, as are some overly zealous tridentine folk, are 'tolerated' not to put too fine a point on it. That some members of the Catholic heirarchy like the movement does not go towards its 'approval'.

And your biblical scholarship, is unfortunately, lacking. You are assigning meaning to the scriptures that may not be there. How do you know that the intent you are trying to give the passages is the intent that the author had in mind?

I'm sorry if this comes across as 'attacking' but inquiring minds want to know.
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I'm not a biblical scholar, therefore it's not surprising that my "biblical scholarship is lacking." Even if it was much better though, "biblical scholarship" proves nothing anyways, because even extraordinarily intelligent scholars of great faith disagree with echother greatly. That''s why we need the Church's teaching authority.

[tojo]

[quote name='Cre8d4Youth' date='Dec 3 2005, 01:11 PM']I want to be very careful in responding to this as I'm still fairly new to the PM community.  Tongues is a hot issue in any church, not just the Pentecostal or Catholic one.  Do I believe that I can induce it...personally no.  I also refute the Pentecostal claim that I have not been truely baptized in the Holy Spirit until I do speak in tongues.  I'm sorry, but the Spirit has granted me far more gifts than just that of speaking in languages I do not know.  If God feels that I need that gift in a specific instance He knows I am open to it though.  I do not seek it.  In fact, the only supernatural miracle I seek from God is to be able to walk on water...I'm about sick of wet shoes when I step in puddles!  :
I hope I don't sound to brash but Paul specifically states that if we are speaking in the tongues of angels ( A language I assume you, and KNOW I don't understand) then we are to pray for the gift of interpretation so as to know what He speaks to and through us.  That sounds emphatically like He will not always speak to me in English.  That could explain why I always misunderstand His "No, not right now" for "Sure, go ahead!!!"
You make far too much of a judgement call imo.  Silly to you might be edifying for some people.  I feel that was uncalled for...but just my opinion on the matter.  Besides, God and GOD alone knows their hearts, let HIM make the call as to what is silly and what is not.
I remember once a story of a man who gave a prayer from the heart in church.  At the end of church an elderly lady approached the young man and told him, "I didn't think much of your prayer, sir."
"That's ok," he replied. "I wasn't talking to you."
And in unknown is only one of the tongues in the Bible.  There are three types of speaking in tounges if you read all accounts in the Bible.  The first recorded happening the disciples spoke to a community, and each heard them in their own tongue.  I'm not 100% sure, but it always came across to me as they spoke normally, but everyone heard them in their own home language.  (In that manner, you would never know if you were speaking in tongues.)  In another instance it says how we can speak in languages unknown and unstudied to us.  And finally in the "tongues of angels."  Now, I don't know for sure, but I don't think that angels spoke Latin or Greek, but have their own language.  Just an opinion though.  THIS is the language Paul tells us to pray for the gift of interpretation for, so as to know what we speak!  And it is for our own edification, our own building up.  It is not for others to tell us we are speaking silly noises.
I'm done, I hope I didn't ruffle feather too much. 
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Thank you.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='tomasio127' date='Dec 3 2005, 01:14 PM']Speaking in unknown tongues is the hallmark of the Charismatic Renewal, the Church has spoken positively of the Renewal, there have been Charismatic conferences at the Vatican, Bishops appoved hundreds of Charismatic masses, and have formed Charismatic parishes.

Furthermore, the BIBLE approves.
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The Church has approved Charismatic Renewal in general, but not everything about it has a mark of approval.
The Apostles were speaking in one language, but everyone heard them in their own language. This is NOT the same as someone making sounds and someone else putting their personal interpretation of them. There is a difference.

Edited December 4, 2005 by cmotherofpirl

[tojo]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Dec 3 2005, 10:56 PM']The Church has approved Charismatic Renewal in general, but not everything about it has a mark of approval.
The Apostles were speaking in one language, but everyone heard them in their own language. This is NOT the same as someone making sounds and someone else putting their personal interpretation of them. There is a difference.
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It doesn't seem to be reasonable to suggest that the Church, approving of the Renewal, would at the same time disapprove of it's chief distinguishing characteristic.

Also, as you may have noticed, your other point has been previously addessed both in this thread, and in other recent threads on this subject, which discussed the belief in the existence of a variety of types of tongues.

Finally, I know longer consider it to be profitable to continue this line of conversation with those who seem to only wish to disparage what I believe is the work of the Holy Spirit, and do not seem to want to understand. I can only speak of my own experience, which is from God, I am not equipped to discuss theology with you guys when you oppose me so ardently, you're more knowledgeable than I. People more knowledgeable than you disagree with you, and others more knowledgeable people yet disagree with them, and so on. But beyond academic discussion, I know what I am talking about and you don't know what it is that you are critizing, so I'd like to ask you to treat appropriately what it is regarded as sacred and holy by others, just as we should all such things, even those we don't personally consider to be so.

[dandy777]

This is a topic that fascinates me a lot since I myself have been exposed to this movement for various years.

Let me share my point of view:

Praying with other christians during a service is not sinful. Christ wants us to be united in one Spirit, the same Spirit of God. Even though there are many differences there are many more similarities between Catholics and non-Catholics. Besides that is what places like Taize` and Ecumenical meetings are all about.

Speaking in tongues is a gift given by God to the individual and not induced by another person. As all other gifts, one must receive it, contemplate on it and grow in it. So after receiving it, one must find some spiritual guidance preferably priests and/or other people who have received the same gift to develop it more and more.

It is very interesting to note as well, that this is the only gift that God gives us for ourdelves and not for others. All other gifts are given to us to help others grow in their faith whereas this is given to the individual to edify himself/herself more and grow closer to God.

[i]"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. [b]He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself[/b], but he who prophesies edifies the church. I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified." (1 Corithians 14:1-5)[/i]

The gift of prophecy is very important as well as St. Paul says here and so speaking in tongues is good to be practised within a congragation. However, I always suggest that a priest would help out in the interpretation and intercession of such prophecies so to make sure that it is truly Spirit-led.

With regards to what cmotherofpirl was writing, there is a difference between the gift the gift of tongues received by the Apostles on Pentecost, better known as glossolalia, and the one other people recieve. The Apostles and disciples spoke in different languages and this obviously was a clear manifestation of the Holy Spirit considering the fact that most of them were illiterate whereas the gift that most people receive is the ability of letting the Holy Spirit pray through them by producing strange groanings. People who have never experienced this will find it hard to believe but that is exactly what happens.

Besides, someone else said that there are no Biblical reference to being "slain in the Spirit". Okay, so let me explain this is simple terms. When the human being (by being I mean body, mind and soul) chooses to open his heart by freewill for the love of God, there is a transcendental experience where the human being comes in contact with the divinity of God. Every person is different and experiences it in different ways. Some people cry and just can't explain why, others suddenly become silent and feel that they are surrounded by and filled by a sense of reverence, others fall to their knees as they are awestruck, others just can't stand on their feet and are "slain in the Spirit". The human body can't resist and/or behave noramlly when it comes in contact with the Glory of God.

As regards the Biblical references, there are two that come to mind. One of them is the end of St. John's Gospel. When the Roman soldiers (remember they were pagans, so they weren't influenced by Jewish tradition) went to the Gethsemane to arrest Jesus ...

[i]"Now Judas, who betrayed him, knew the place, because Jesus had often met there with his disciples. So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons.

Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, "Who is it you want?"

"Jesus of Nazareth," they replied.

"I am he," Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) [b]When Jesus said, "I am he," they drew back and fell to the ground. [/b]

Again he asked them, "Who is it you want?" And they said, "Jesus of Nazareth."

"I told you that I am he," Jesus answered. "If you are looking for me, then let these men go." This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: "I have not lost one of those you gave me." (John 18:2-9)[/i]

The soldier didn't fall to the ground because he tripped over something for sure. And we all know that ther is always a reason why Jesus asks a question twice.

Apart from that there is Saul's conversion into Paul. Again another Jew who used to persecute Christians. So he was not influenced by Christians for sure. There is no horse mentioned in the Bible. That was a traditional icon that came into life after several church paintings depicting St. Paul on a horse.

[i]"About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. [b]I fell to the ground [/b]and heard a voice say to me, 'Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?' (Acts 22:6-7)[/i]

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fluff jump on this..

as a pseudo mystic(*not by choice, but because of your goverment) the concept of a working pneutology is something I feel the church has ignored, yet the pentasoctals over-do. The "wamr and fuzzies" and emotional rush is not a good enviroment for a true lifelong faith.

btw, its a sin to received communion, not to go to a "service" unless you use that service instead of mass

[dandy777]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 5 2005, 02:30 PM']fluff jump on this..

as a pseudo mystic(*not by choice, but because of your goverment) the concept of a working pneutology is something I feel the church has ignored, yet the pentasoctals over-do. The "wamr and fuzzies" and emotional rush is not a good enviroment for a true lifelong faith.
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can you explain yourself better please cos I didn't understand you?

[quote name='Revprodeji']btw, its a sin to received communion, not to go to a "service" unless you use that service instead of mass[/quote]

Definitely.

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what dont u understand?

fluff...wanna translate

[dandy777]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 5 2005, 02:57 PM']what dont u understand?

fluff...wanna translate
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are you pulling my leg or what?

I was talking about the bit concerning emotional stuff!

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oh gotcha...

the big vice with this form of protestant/pent eccesiology is that the faith is based on an emotional response that one gets from the worship setting ot the tongues, problem is as in anything the emotions are not stable, i mean really what kind of human relationship would last if it was just emotions? So the depth of the faith is not solid, and the faithwalk can be very up and down. Its not safe