Laudate_Dominum Posted December 1, 2005 Share Posted December 1, 2005 I don't think its right to think of people as being in hell. We have no way of knowing that. And God desires that all will be saved so we should desire and hope for that as well. I hope Martin Luther is in heaven, and I won't be terribly surprised if he is. Certainly this would be in spite of his heresy and sins. But I still think that its uncharitable to presume someone is in hell. Some of the most evil people in history have had deathbed conversions. There is always hope for everyone, and it is better to hope than to presume the worst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatty07 Posted December 1, 2005 Share Posted December 1, 2005 The section quoted from Triumph that starts this thread is representative of a very popular new strand of Lutheran biographical work. All of a sudden...last 10 years or so...everybody's psychoanalyzing the man. I forget who wrote the book that started it. I have to admit it's an interesting diversion, but it isn't good history or good psychology...there's just far to little substance behind the conclusions. For example, that old story about Luther coming up with "sola fide" in an outhouse, the very moment he was, um, delivered from a long and uncomfortable gastrointestinal situation. It's based on a very questionable metaphorical interpretation of Luther's own account. It really sounded like a stretch to me when I read the actual text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted December 1, 2005 Share Posted December 1, 2005 pschoanalysis isn't all that hot. It's not uncommon for five different psychologists to come up with five different diagnoses for one neurotic patient. And when we're talking about someone who lived so long ago it becomes even less credible. But I would be interested in reading that stuff. I'd just take it with a grain of salt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted December 1, 2005 Share Posted December 1, 2005 I don't like how people can say that Luther is in heaven. there are letters from him to his mother telling her not to leave Catholicism which he calls the true relegion after his excommunication and refusal to go to the counicl of trent. He may be in heaven but lets not say things that we no nothing of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted December 1, 2005 Share Posted December 1, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Dec 1 2005, 05:34 PM']I don't like how people can say that Luther is in heaven. there are letters from him to his mother telling her not to leave Catholicism which he calls the true relegion after his excommunication and refusal to go to the counicl of trent. He may be in heaven but lets not say things that we no nothing of. [right][snapback]807454[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I'm not saying he's in heaven. I'm just saying we don't know where he is and its best to "hope" that he's saved. If mass murderers have had death bed conversions, why couldn't someone who was at least trying to follow God? I don't think its a stretch to give Luther the benefit of the doubt and assume that his intentions were not all bad. But still, I'm talking about hope, not judging where he ended up. We don't know that and can't know that. Unless Luther was canonized, which is never going to happen. hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted December 1, 2005 Share Posted December 1, 2005 no not yoy LD i agree with what you say. Revprodeji said he felt that luther was in heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted December 1, 2005 Share Posted December 1, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Dec 1 2005, 05:39 PM']no not yoy LD i agree with what you say. Revprodeji said he felt that luther was in heaven. [right][snapback]807463[/snapback][/right] [/quote] oh , I guess I should read more carefully. my bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted December 1, 2005 Share Posted December 1, 2005 no problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted December 1, 2005 Share Posted December 1, 2005 I say I "feel" he is in heaven, its the same assumption you could but shouldnt make about anyone else. I have no insider(lost Miss cleo's number) but based on what I have read I feel he would be. I mean, he had a radical faith. Thats great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted December 1, 2005 Share Posted December 1, 2005 Radical faith does not get you into heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted December 1, 2005 Share Posted December 1, 2005 sorry, thats a protestant term.. radical would be better described as legit, or life-changing faith. He had the faith and he allowed his life to move by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted December 1, 2005 Share Posted December 1, 2005 still doesn't matter. for a non- Catholic to be saved they must inculpably ignorant. Its hard to argue that a man who was a Catholic priest, and a prominent Catholic theologian would be incullpably ignorant. If they are incullpably ignorant (which Luther proably was not) they would have to live by their conscience (which he may or may not have done). So considering these facts it is very hard to say that Luther is not Damned. there is a letter to his mother that he wrote telling her NOT to convert becasue Catholicism is true. He called the Pope the Anti-christ, and led thousands from the truth. to even say that you feel he is in heaven is perpostrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted December 1, 2005 Share Posted December 1, 2005 well, lucky for us its neither of our duty to know.. I just dont tend to view him in that much of a negative light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted December 1, 2005 Share Posted December 1, 2005 how can one not view him in a negative light? hes a negative person. who did negative things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 you know him? You guys boys and all? Im just playing really, but you seem bias to not liking him at all. Whats with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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