You Know that Luther Guy...

[sweetpea316]

Whoa, Myles. I like the way you put that... As someone who's been Lutheran their whole life and is now looking into Catholicism, it's kind of hard hearing both sides of this, but you put that very nicely. I've had sola fide, sola scriptura...blah blah... crammed down my throat all these years, but never really thought of it like you stated...how he not only wanted to fix some things, but to change teachings and whatnot. I dunno, I guess something just clicked. Heh, anyways... carry on. I just felt like rambling.

[Myles Domini]

What else if Phatmass for apart from Rambling eh Sweetpea? I'm glad I could help. If you want any other information on the Protestant Reformation just ask. I studied it for two years may as well use the info.

INXC
Myles

[Theoketos]

I thoguht Eck was before Cajetan?

[Myles Domini]

[quote]I thoguht Eck was before Cajetan?[/quote]

Cajetan met with Luther in October 1518 at Augsburg. The Leipzig Disputation with Eck was the following summer (4 July-27 July 1519).

INXC
Myles

[jezic]

while there might be more Christian charity required here, one wonders if Luther had more than one incidence of this. It was a little bit of a problem (evidently)

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='DAF' date='Nov 30 2005, 07:21 PM']I knew somebody would bring this up...
Perhaps it's not prudent to willfully think such things, but give me some slack here.
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It really is very much against our faith to put someone in hell.

[Mrvoll]

That is just weird.

[Aloysius]

I don't mind speculating that it is very likely that Luther went to hell. we don't know for certain of couse, but it's very likely.

the person most likely to be in Hell is Judas Iscariot, per the words of Jesus Christ Himself that it would be better for him to have never been born (any soul that ends up in heaven thus rejoicing the angels would certianly not be better off not existing). but great heretics are also very likely, and the image of them burning in hell is not at all a wrong image to suggest. Dante placed people in hell-- he was not judging, he was making a point. So too in that mindset only should we envision Martin Luther in hell. it would be Divine Justice, if he is in hell we should feel no pity for him. It is certainly grevious that one created for the purpose of being good has entered into an eternal evil state (because they eternally have a twisted nature, they are still not evil by nature)... but if it is then it is and it is COMFORTING to know such justice has been served.

you would be wrong to say you know for certain that luther is in hell, but we needn't avoid the image of luther burning in hell-- it is an image of Divine Justice, of the full just punishment deserved for helping severely damage Christian unity for five hundred years.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 1 2005, 03:18 PM']you would be wrong to say you know for certain that luther is in hell, but we needn't avoid the image of luther burning in hell-- it is an image of Divine Justice, of the full just punishment deserved for helping severely damage Christian unity for five hundred years.
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I second this.

[Era Might]

[quote]So too in that mindset only should we envision Martin Luther in hell. [/quote]

Why?

[quote]For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

--James 2:13[/quote]

I would certainly agree that it is a very realistic possibility that people like Luther are in hell. But, as John Paul II notes in "Crossing the Threshold of Hope", we are not permitted to know:

[quote]Can God, who has loved man so much, permit the man who rejects Him to be condemned to eternal torment? And yet, the words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew's Gospel He speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Mt 25:46). Who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard. This is a mystery, truly inscrutable, which embraces the holiness of God and the conscience of man. [b]The silence of the Church is, therefore, the only appropriate position for Christian faith[/b]. Even when Jesus says of Judas, the traitor, "It would be better for that man if he had never been born" (Mt 26:24), His words do not allude for certain to eternal damnation.[/quote]

[quote]you would be wrong to say you know for certain that luther is in hell, but we needn't avoid the image of luther burning in hell-- it is an image of Divine Justice, of the full just punishment deserved for helping severely damage Christian unity for five hundred years.[/quote]

The image of Luther in Heaven is an image of Divine Mercy. I can easily imagine him in Heaven or Hell. Such is the nature of God's Justice and his Mercy. But if either takes precedence, it is mercy, because, as St. James says, it has triumphed over Justice.

Edited December 1, 2005 by Era Might

[N/A Gone]

I dont see logically a reason why we would think Luther is in hell anymore than viking fans dont like Farve.

Myles, You said you have done some reformation research. I have not done 2 years worth of it, but my undergrad is from a protestant college so it is always in the air. From my understanding of luther the "sola" were not formally developed until the original reform concepts didnt work, and without the church holding it back(it being a more faith-related system) they slingshot to the extreme. With scripture, I know he always wanted scripture to be the authority. In worms it is infamous that all he wanted was "scripture proof or simple reason" he just wanted a justification for why we do what we do. And we have that now in a lot of places.

Braaten(big time lutheran theologian) in his book "mother church" as well as Mark Noll(perhaps the best protestant historian) in "is the reformation over" both point to the concept that they do not feel luther would have split today. BUT, remember he didnt want to split before. He was shot-down and excommunicated. Where as all the church needed to do was discuss and allow him to help reform the practice problems that Im sure most of us would have had a problem with. Catholics say we debated him, prots said we tried to convict him.

He wanted reform, there even is a rumor he was a pope canidate. but got Married. Could you imagine how the church would be? You cant say he wasnt a great theologian if he was respected as a dr. of theology and considered a papel option.

but I guess in the same way that prots are taught to dislike the pope, we are taught to not like luther.

but myles, I agree fully with you. He never really understood catholicism. He was in a weird time in germany, and he had a bad rome experience.I say pray for him.

[N/A Gone]

you should try watching the movie...its actually well put together.

[Era Might]

[quote]I dont see logically a reason why we would think Luther is in hell anymore than viking fans dont like Farve. [/quote]

I see why his probability of being in hell is greater than, say, my grandmother, for the same reason Hitler is very likely in hell. Luther was perhaps the greatest heretic in Christian history.

But, as I said, I can also very easily see him in Heaven, which is why we must respect the silence from beyond the grave.

[sweetpea316]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Dec 1 2005, 02:55 PM']I see why his probability of being in hell is greater than, say, my grandmother, for the same reason Hitler is very likely in hell. Luther was perhaps the greatest heretic in Christian history.

But, as I said, I can also very easily see him in Heaven, which is why we must respect the silence from beyond the grave.
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Agreed. I hate to think the he could be in hell because of my background and always being told that he was such a great person and whatnot. And then the fact that I did once believe what he taught...and my family still does. It's just kinda hard to think about. But then you get my pastor, who after JP2 died, made a remark about he thinks he's possibly in hell. Blah. It's just a complicated thing...cause none of us really have any idea what was in their hearts...just what their lives and actions showed. Anyways....

[N/A Gone]

well, luther battled depression alot, he followed the view that he felt God was leading him to. He had a good education, but in a limited field. In his conscience being pulled he obeyed his conscience. In the famous worms hearing he even says how he wanted proof in scripture or in simple reason, because he cant go against what his conscience tells him. But, instead of answering him and working to explain it shows that he was convicted. Many of the reforms he wanted have happened. I wonder what would have happened if he did get a position in the higher parts of the papacy.

The sola's were an extreme reaction of the evils he saw. He wanted scripture as an authority. We have that available for the lay now. he wanted a faith more focused on faith not deeds, even today in the news the pope speaks about personal faith. These views were good, they became extreme.

But after the excomunication his depression got the worse. I feel he is in heaven, that he was a faithful servant. I think he spent a bit of time in purgatory, but most of us will.