Lose limbo, but salvage purgatory

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Dec 2 2005, 11:10 PM']That was because they were born under the Old Law, awaiting the Messiah. There was something more to come, Christ preaching to the souls as you said. Do you suggest that this will come again? Christ going back to limbo?
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I believe that to be a distinct possibility. Unlike most medieval theologians of limbo, I don't think that the state of limbo has necessarily been polarized to be completely eternal for the age of the New Testament.

Last time I proposed this, the immediate response was questioning the purpose of them being in Limbo until the second coming... well the purpose is to satisfy justice in regards the fallen nature of these people. they wait, not in progression and not in digression, they simply exist and do not change.

these are people judged to be just based on the natural law because they have no culpability for any actual sin, but have not been lifted out of the fallen nature that prevents them from going to heaven.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Doesn't the concept of limbo imply that the graces necessary to save an invincibly ignorant person are not really offered as Vatican II and recent Popes have said?

[Aloysius]

they are offered during life. a person may or may not be culpable for accepting or rejecting them. but if someone dies with a fallen nature, they will reject heaven. it would seem to me it would have to be either pre-mortum or at the point of death that God uses the extraordinary means to fix their fallen nature if this concept is to work. if a person enters the afterlife without having been baptized from original sin (even if it's in some extraordinary way that the Church says we do not know if it exists or not) then that person does not go to heaven. a fallen nature facing God after death will hide in the same way Adam and Eve hid.

[Paphnutius]

Original sin is the deprivation of sanctifying grace. Those who still have the stain of original sin are deprived of santcitfying grace. One must be in the state of grace upon death to be justified. One cannot be justified after death. Those who die out of the state of grace are condemned.

Where does limbo fit in?

[Aloysius]

ahhh horatio, horatio, horatio...

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limbo is the edge of the abode of the dead. in the last age, the age of the old testament, it was not in eternity. if it is still not in eternity, but subject to time, then people waiting in limbo are waiting within the course of time. but in limbo they do not change for better or for worse, even though they exist in time.

but at the second coming of Christ, anyone who has not yet entered into eternity is subject to the Final Judgement. if limbo is still within time, then at the second coming of Christ He might come and free them and at that point offer to them to either accept Him and be justified or reject Him.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 2 2005, 10:48 PM']ahhh horatio, horatio, horatio...

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limbo is the edge of the abode of the dead.  in the last age, the age of the old testament, it was not in eternity.  if it is still not in eternity, but subject to time, then people waiting in limbo are waiting within the course of time.  but in limbo they do not change for better or for worse, even though they exist in time. 
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But the real question is: If it is in time are they like really, really, really old?!

Seriously though. I would ask how you support limbo being in time.

[Aloysius]

because if limbo, the edge of the abode of the dead, were ETERNAL then Christ would not have been able to preach to the just souls and offer them salvation when He descended there. also, it is logically impossible for Christ to have descended into eternal punishment.

therefore, it is not eternal. for a state to be non-eternal, it must be subject to time.

but Aquinas said that limbo now is deeper into the abode of the dead, so much so that it is now eternal. I am not convinced, I think it quite possible that there exists a limbo at the same stage the old limbo existed at, within time.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 2 2005, 11:00 PM']because if limbo, the edge of the abode of the dead, were ETERNAL then Christ would not have been able to preach to the just souls and offer them salvation when He descended there.  also, it is logically impossible for Christ to have descended into eternal punishment.
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Yeah granted...I overlooked that for some reason.

So you think that a person can be justified after death as long as they have no entered into eternity? And it is your speculation that while a person may die without the state of grace, if he or she is inculpably ignorant God will grant them the [i]grace [/i] to remain in time so that He might justify them later?

[Aloysius]

people who are not culpable for actual sin and thus not deserving of active punishment, but have a fallen nature, may be in a state where God does not actively punish them but merely leaves them, there on the edge of the abode of the dead..

and only through an extra-ordinary non-normative act would a person be able to be lifted out of original sin after death. say... for example... the coming of a Messiah

but God cannot lift anyone out of an eternal state, because that would be a contradiction in terms-- if He could lift them out of that state, it would not be an eternal state.

[PadreSantiago]

well i say to you sir that if god can't lift me from an eternal state then he is not in fact god

[Aloysius]

if He lifted you out of an eternal state it wouldnt be an eternal state, then He wouldnt have lifted you out of an eternal state

[Aloysius]

anyway, that's a tangent. look up the topic "Could God make a rock..." for more information on things of that nature. the point is, if God ended that state, it would no longer be an eternal state. same reason God could not make a non-circle circle. if it was a circle, then it couldn't be a non-circle. same reason He couldn't make a non-squirrel squirrel, or a non-taco taco. if He made something non-taco, it wouldn't be a taco, if He made something non-squirrel, it wouldn't be a squirrel.

back to Limbo.... : a state on the edge of the abode of the dead not necessarily eternal or out of time and that thus theoretically could be ended.

[fatboyluis]

i am totally gob smacked by these discussions. im so glad i have joined this phorum im learning soo much, i would just like to ask how u are Aloysius? just out of curiousity, ur language is both clear and very very detailed information, if u get that?

lol anyways God Bless u all!!

[Aloysius]

I'm fine. lol, did you mean to ask how old I am? 18.

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thank you for the compliment