Lose limbo, but salvage purgatory

[philothea]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Dec 2 2005, 07:43 PM']so if Limbo does not exist all the unbaptized babies, etc. go to hell?

wouldn't babies be invincibly ignorant?
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Of course babies are invincibly ignorant. If anyone is, they are.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

well than if they are invincibley (sp?) than why would they go to limbo?

am i thought the ignorant went to heaven?

[Aloysius]

original sin and actual sin are two different concepts. actual sin refers to sins committed by an individual, original sin refers to the fallen state we are born in as a result of the sin of adam and eve.

original sin prevents us from going to heaven. but we are not necessarily deserving of any active punishments such as the pains of eternal hellfire.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 2 2005, 08:00 PM']original sin prevents us from going to heaven.  but we are not necessarily deserving of any active punishments such as the pains of eternal hellfire.
[/quote]
We share in the other "active punishments" do we not? The result of the fall.

[Aloysius]

I'm talking about true absolute punishment, the point at which punishment is not intended to reform but intended for absolute pure justice. that is, I'm speaking of eternal punishment. someone who is not culpable for any actual sin does not necessarily deserve this eternal punishment.

when I said "[i]active[/i] punishment" I intended to distinguish that from a sort of [i]passive[/i] punishment, that someone would be left in their fallen nature. there is no active punishment put on them, the only punishment is in leaving them alone, a sort of passive punishment.

God actually positively punishes the people in the hell of eternal damnation, because it satisfies absolute justice, love of good, and hatred for the twisting of good (or evil).

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

The Second Vatican Council teaches that the Holy Spirit makes the necessary graces for salvation available to all in some way. It seems like if everyone had the chance, there wouldn't be an "intermediate" zone such as limbo because nobody would qualify. You either accepted the graces or did not. Heaven or Hell.
[url="http://www.catholicfiles.com/againstfeeneyism.html#v2"]http://www.catholicfiles.com/againstfeeneyism.html#v2[/url]

[Aloysius]

I really hope you're not considering me a feenyist over my support for limbo

anyway, that everyone is offered sufficient grace is true. but circumstances make a person not culpable for not responding to that grace offered, thus the definition of the inculpably ignorant or the invincibly ignorant-- who we are talking about.

so if a person is not culpable for not responding to the grace and being baptized, he falls into this category.

the fact that sufficient grace is offered does not mean that it is offered post-mortum for the restoring of fallen nature.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 2 2005, 09:32 PM']I really hope you're not considering me a feenyist over my support for limbo
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There are plenty of Catholics in good standing who support limbo theory. Don't worry. I thought I was the one who was over the top.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Definately not a Feeneyist. I just wanted to reference the quotes from Vatican II and they happened to be neatly layed out on my Feeneyism page. Sorry.

I guess I have a different vision of the grace being offered. I almost think of it as following the law written on the heart in making moral decisions. In my way of thinking (maybe I'm wrong), everyone has responded to the grace by the actions they choose.

Edited December 3, 2005 by thedude

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 2 2005, 09:04 PM']I'm talking about true absolute punishment, the point at which punishment is not intended to reform but intended for absolute pure justice. [/quote]
Okay. Just usally when people say "such as" they are distinguishing one from a group of that one kind, meaning that there would have been more active punishments here than hell.

[quote]when I said "[i]active[/i] punishment" I intended to distinguish that from a sort of [i]passive[/i] punishment, that someone would be left in their fallen nature.  there is no active punishment put on them, the only punishment is in leaving them alone, a sort of passive punishment.[/quote] Was man not made to have to till the soil and live be the sweat of his own brow? What about the labor pains of the woman. The relationship of man to God, man to man, and man to nature were rent assundure appear to be more than just a leaving alone. All of these could be understand as a result of the absence of God's presence that we once had, but they could also appear to be more than simply that. Specifcially the labor pains of women seem to be an active and inflicted punishment more than just a leaving to self.

I understand your point, do not get me wrong, but I think that holding such a view one could down play that consequences of the Fall.

[quote]the fact that sufficient grace is offered does not mean that it is offered post-mortum for the restoring of fallen nature.[/quote]I think that would be shakey ground my friend. If I am understanding you correctly, you are stating that those that die inculpably ignorant may be justified after death?

[Aloysius]

no, I'm arguing against that very notion-- the idea that an unbaptized inculpably ignorant person would, after death, be offered the grace to restore his fallen nature. I'm against that concept, saying that sufficient grace is offered to all during their lifetime, if they are not culpable for not accepting that grace due to other circumstances, then they fall into the inculpably ignorant category we are talking about.

eternal punishment is a different thing from punishment in time. in time, God might actively punish with the intention of making the person stronger and helping them grow and learn their lesson. eternal punishment it to satisfy Divine Justice, it does not have the goal of helping the punished.

original sin's effects post mortum on someone who did not necessarily deserve eternal punishment would then manifest as a passive punishment. God is not actively causing any torment upon them, He is merely leaving them alone, as opposed to what happens in eternal punishment.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='thedude' date='Dec 2 2005, 10:41 PM']Definately not a Feeneyist.  I just wanted to reference the quotes from Vatican II and they happened to be neatly layed out on my Feeneyism page.  Sorry.

I guess I have a different vision of the grace being offered.  I almost think of it as following the law written on the heart in making moral decisions.  In my way of thinking (maybe I'm wrong), everyone has responded to the grace by the actions they choose.
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ok, just so we're clear I'm no feenyist!

Vatican II is there saying the sufficient grace to be saved is offered for anyone who will accept it. The full version of accepting it is being baptized and joining the Catholic Church. If there are circumstances that prevent them from thusly joining that they are not culpable for, then they fall into all this discussion. They are judged according with the natural law, yes, but someone with original will automatically refuse to go to heaven, and we know of no way that God removes original sin except baptism. It would have to be extra-ordinary means to restore the fallen nature.

I am saying that God usually doesn't make a habit out of extra-ordinary things (unlike parishes and extraordinary ministers of holy communion ), and the only thing that fits in with His ordinary and normative means is some form of exclusion from heaven for anyone who dies with a fallen nature.

those who lived justly by the natural law but died with a fallen nature before Christ were put into a state of limbo, the bosom of abraham.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 2 2005, 09:48 PM']no, I'm arguing against that very notion-- the idea that an unbaptized inculpably ignorant person would, after death, be offered the grace to restore his fallen nature. 
[/quote]
Ok. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[quote]eternal punishment is a different thing from punishment in time.  in time, God might actively punish with the intention of making the person stronger and helping them grow and learn their lesson.  eternal punishment it to satisfy Divine Justice, it does not have the goal of helping the punished. 
[/quote]Yes I understand that, but it does not seem to satisfy that women's labor pains are meant for repentance or conversion.

[quote]original sin's effects post mortum on someone who did not necessarily deserve eternal punishment would then manifest as a passive punishment. God is not actively causing any torment upon them, He is merely leaving them alone, as opposed to what happens in eternal punishment.[/quote]I believe that one could also say that Hell is the ultimate "leaving alone," for hell is the complete absence of God's presence.

But we digress... one, if not the, principle effect of original sin was the deprivation of original justice and sanctifying grace which resulted in the death of not only the body, but also of the soul. I am not so sure if inculpable ignorance plays into this because if look at the transmission of the sin of Adam, we find that personal and real assent to the Original Sin is not needed, for we share in it by being one in the family of Adam (meaning human).

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 2 2005, 09:58 PM']those who lived justly by the natural law but died with a fallen nature before Christ were put into a state of limbo, the bosom of abraham. 
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That was because they were born under the Old Law, awaiting the Messiah. There was something more to come, Christ preaching to the souls as you said. Do you suggest that this will come again? Christ going back to limbo?

[Aloysius]

In Hell, souls are actively punsihed by the fire of God's divine wrath. The absence of God is an absence of communion with Him, a complete and utter disconnection and separation from Him, but He punishes them, he is acting upon them by punishing them.

it is inculpable ignorance for failing to get baptized, not inculpable ignorance for original sin itself. original sin is a state we are all born in, in this Age of Christ we are offered the way to restore our nature by the Church.

all suffering in the context of time can strenthen. God actively punishes during time always in order to strengthen us. Thus, the physical effects of original sin are active punishment by God... but any post mortum effect for original sin would not necessarily be an active punishment of God.