Lose limbo, but salvage purgatory

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

There are two "limbos" in Catholic theology.

Limbus paternum (Limbo of the Fathers): Before Christ, nobody could get into heaven. This is where the righteous before Christ resided (Abraham, etc.) until his ressurection. This is the "hell" that Christ descended to.

Limbus infantium (Limbo of the Children): A theological hypothesis for the residence of the unbaptized. Has never been defined in Catholic doctrine. You can choose to believe it or not. I personally do not believe it makes sense in light of the Church's constant teaching on salvation for those that are invincibly ignorant of the Gospel.

Nowadays when you hear limbo, it is usually understood to be limbus infantium.

All the headlines about limbo popping up all over the place are highly misleading. [u]The Church cannot "lose" limbo because it never had limbo.[/u] It has never been anything more than a theological idea. Perhaps the Church is crushing this speculative theology by defining that limbus infantium does not exist.

Edited December 1, 2005 by thedude

[Laudate_Dominum]

that article was painful to read. it is just one error and distortion after another.

such is life.. at times I suppose..

[Aloysius]

limbo is the same place, the limbo of the fathers and the limbo of the unbaptized. it is the edge of the abode of the dead, where souls have not entered into eternal damnation... UNLESS as much theological speculation on limbo has it (not my personal view of it...) Christ's coming set the edge of hell as no longer a place not yet in eternity.

[beatty07]

Thanks for providing some terminology, thedude. What strikes me as bizarre and innovative about Limbus Infantium is that while it solves a minor problem, it introduces a much larger one. By accepting its existence you have introduced a third eternal destiny. Limbus Paternum does no such thing. I think that such an introduction is a big, big deal and should be viewed with much caution.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='beatty07' date='Dec 1 2005, 04:54 PM']Thanks for providing some terminology, thedude.  What strikes me as bizarre and innovative about Limbus Infantium is that while it solves a minor problem, it introduces a much larger one.  By accepting its existence you have introduced a third eternal destiny.  Limbus Paternum does no such thing.  I think that such an introduction is a big, big deal and should be viewed with much caution.
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There are many versions of limbo theory in Roman Catholic theology. Some see and attempt to resolve this problem.
One approach is to consider limbo as hell minus the positive punishments, basically hell without suffering, this is common to the Augustinian tradition. This can be problematic nowadays because certain condemnations of Jansenist views make this a difficult position to take whilst remaining in line with the Church.
I suppose after the middle ages the common approach was conceiving of limbus infantum as a state of "pure nature", a concept that I attempted to critique last year and still believe to be utter nonsense.
The more nice versions of limbo theory have there own problems that I consider to be insurmountable. Mostly due to authoritative statements of the Church that restrict the discussion. I once held to Cajetan's theory, but found that it was irreconcilable with all teachings of the Church that have implications for this theory.
It's been a while since I've thought about the subject, but the conclusion I reached long ago was that limbo is absurd.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

I support Limbo.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Dec 1 2005, 05:21 PM']I support Limbo.
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It's a matter of speculation not doctrine, so I can respect that. And you aren't alone Sam. There are plenty of brilliant theologians on your side. Just from the research I've done, I can't accept it. It's possible I will be convinced otherwise as I learn more.

God bless.

[Paphnutius]

Everyone knows that The Inferno is not doctrine, but anyone having flashbacks of the first few cantos?

Edited December 1, 2005 by Paphnutius

[Laudate_Dominum]

hehehe

[Aloysius]

I believe in an edge to the abode of the dead (limbo) and that people inculpable of any actual sin but still with the fallen nature of Adam go there. it needn't be locked in as eternal.

it is almost like LIMBO:HELL::PURGATORY:HEAVEN

except when Christ comes to free souls from limbo (not saying that this will necessarily happen at the second coming, but he did it at His first coming so this is from observation) He then offers them the choice between heaven and hell, whereas the only destination after purgatory is heaven. also, purgatory consists of progression, ongoing purification. limbo is just the soul existing in its fallen nature without any actual sin it is culpable for.

perhaps there will be official condemnation of an eternal limbo concept? hmmmmmm

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Limbo does not make sense to me in light of Papal statements from the last 200 years regarding the possibility for invincibly ignorant people to be saved. They seem to be too certain to allow for a limbo.

Another interesting thing to think about is the concept of time outside this existence. Christ descended into "sheol" and preached - because of the eternal nature of the afterlife, could he still in a sense be in "sheol" preaching? Would saying he has left be putting a time constraint on Christ? Anyone know what I'm saying?

[Aloysius]

most of the statements are on the possibility of non-damnation for the inculpably ignorant. speculation of their possible salvation come up more recently, and it is all speculation and it clearly says that we know of no means by which God could wipe away original sin, the speculation is that hopefully maybe possibly there's some means that God has not revealed to us. that's about it.

since Limbo is the edge of the abode of the dead (look up the etymology of the word, that's what it means) it is basically before the exit from time and entering into eternity, well, at least that's what the limbo of the fathers was. the theological speculation of the medievals is that all of the abode of the dead was locked into eternity. I don't hold that view, it is a period of complete rest, no progress or digress, but simply absolute complete waiting, time progresses.

there are parts of the abode of the dead that are not outside of time, namely purgatory (for no change can come about without time) and I would argue that limbo is still not in eternity.

[son_of_angels]

The problem here though is that Original Sin IS ACTUAL SIN, which damns one ever bit as much as mortal sin. Read my post in the other limbo thread.

[philothea]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Dec 1 2005, 05:01 PM']There are many versions of limbo theory in Roman Catholic theology. Some see and attempt to resolve this problem.
[. . .]
It's been a while since I've thought about the subject, but the conclusion I reached long ago was that limbo is absurd.
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I came to the same conclusion...


...but without all that tedious thinking nonsense.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

so if Limbo does not exist all the unbaptized babies, etc. go to hell?

wouldn't babies be invincibly ignorant?