Lose limbo, but salvage purgatory

[cappie]

Lose limbo, but salvage purgatory

The Vatican is moving to consign its dead letter office to the dim past, writes Paul Collins.

IT HAS gradually drifted into a state of limbo itself over the past few decades, and now the Catholic Church is moving to make it official, deciding to review limbo, the place between heaven and hell, with the aim of getting it off the books altogether.

In the tradition of the Catholic Church, limbo was where the unbaptised went after death - and there was no way out. Limbo was also home to the likes of Moses, Plato and Abraham, and a legion of others from the ancient world.

A sort of dead letter office, limbo was cut out of official church teachings in 1992, although for many years the concept had been largely ignored. And now, the church's leading theologians are meeting to consider formally cutting limbo out all together.

Unlike purgatory, where the dead could eventually graduate to heaven, those stuck in limbo were, well, in limbo, even though they may not have done anything evil that would have banished them from heaven.

For some older Catholics, limbo caused enormous grief. A mother who miscarried suffered from the knowledge that the soul of her baby would be lost forever in limbo, a place between heaven and hell through no fault of their own, for example.

As a concept, limbo really took hold in the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages, arising out of debate about the concept of original sin.

Even though he died about 425, Pelagius, a theologian from Britain, was a modern sort of chap. He believed in what today we'd probably call self-actualisation. In other words we can do good for ourselves and others by the sheer force of our natural, God-given willpower.

Pelagius was something of a hit in aristocratic circles, especially in Rome in the late fourth century, but his teaching annoyed Saint Augustine, bishop of Hippo in North Africa. Augustine believed in original sin: the state of sin we inherited from Adam and Eve when they disobeyed God and were cast out of Eden.

Augustine maintained you could do good only with God's help and grace. And because we were all born in original sin, unless you were baptised in the one, true church, you were off to hell. Trapped by his own logic, he allowed no exceptions. He simply assumed that many, if not most, were damned.

Augustine's theology was deeply influential on many thinkers in the Middle Ages. They believed in the necessity of baptism for salvation. Yet many children died before baptism could be administered. Did they go to hell, even though they had done no evil? And the medievals were also worried about the good people and saints from the Old Testament, like the great prophets. What happened to them?

Medieval theologians couldn't repudiate Augustine, so they had to find a way around him. They invented a kind of adjunct to hell - the limbus inferni, the border or edge of hell - where, in an odd combination, the saints of the Old Testament and unbaptised infants existed in a state of natural happiness, but where they couldn't see God face-to-face. It must have been pretty boring. One wonders what they had in common?

And so limbo got into the tradition: it was where you went when you weren't going anywhere else. It was never an official teaching of the Catholic Church; it was never more than a theological opinion, no matter how widely accepted.

And now the Vatican is moving to get rid of it altogether. It is not mentioned in the 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church, and it has not played a role in mainstream modern Catholic theology.

The modern emphasis has been on the fact that God wants all to be saved, what is called the universal salvific will of God. Most Catholic theologians today hold that God offers the gift of salvation to everyone and that those who accept it are saved. It seems like if you do good, follow your conscience, then you're home free. But if you push that too far, it sounds like you're back with Pelagius.

So Benedict XVI has handed limbo over to an advisory body, the International Theological Commission. I find the stark choice between heaven and hell a bit too absolutist. So I hope purgatory doesn't end up in limbo.

Paul Collins most recent book is God's New Man (2005) on Pope Benedict XVI.

Medieval theologians couldn't repudiate Augustine, so they had to find a way around him. They invented a kind of adjunct to hell - the limbus inferni, the border or edge of hell - where, in an odd combination, the saints of the Old Testament and unbaptised infants existed in a state of natural happiness, but where they couldn't see God face-to-face. It must have been pretty boring. One wonders what they had in common?

And so limbo got into the tradition: it was where you went when you weren't going anywhere else. It was never an official teaching of the Catholic Church; it was never more than a theological opinion, no matter how widely accepted.

And now the Vatican is moving to get rid of it altogether. It is not mentioned in the 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church, and it has not played a role in mainstream modern Catholic theology.

The modern emphasis has been on the fact that God wants all to be saved, what is called the universal salvific will of God. Most Catholic theologians today hold that God offers the gift of salvation to everyone and that those who accept it are saved. It seems like if you do good, follow your conscience, then you're home free. But if you push that too far, it sounds like you're back with Pelagius.

So Benedict XVI has handed limbo over to an advisory body, the International Theological Commission. I find the stark choice between heaven and hell a bit too absolutist. So I hope purgatory doesn't end up in limbo

[The Joey-O]

Hmm...you got cut off at the end. It's a nice report of what the Vat's doing. (Could you provide a link?) Were you going to ask a question or make a point? Or is this a news flash? (I'm not saying that a news flash is bad, just curious).
Thanx.

In Christ's Love,
JoeyO.

[Myles Domini]

[quote]So Benedict XVI has handed limbo over to an advisory body, the International Theological Commission. I find the stark choice between heaven and hell a bit too absolutist. So I hope purgatory doesn't end up in limbo[/quote]

A misguided understanding of Dogmatics colours this comment. It makes little sense to compare a dogmatic teaching of the Church defined by a General Coucil (purgatory) to a theologumenon like limbo. Even if a Pope wanted to change it he couldnt I fail to see the comparison the author is trying to make.

[rkwright]

so then where do we say that Abraham or the babies go?

[journeyman]

[quote name='rkwright' date='Nov 30 2005, 07:13 PM']so then where do we say that Abraham or the babies go?
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Wasn't Abraham in sheol (did I spell that right?) . . . with the leper at his bosum, and the rich man burning across some impassable chasm?

It seems plausible that the concept of "paradise" (the good thief was promised that from the cross) is the Abraham side of the chasm.

Babies having had no opportunity to commit any overt sins, would spend a (hopefully) minimal amount of time there before being welcomed into heaven.

It would also seem plausible that the Abraham side of the chasm corresponds to the modern concept of purgatory . . . where some cleansing is required, but heaven is still the ultimate destination.

(please note, I am not a Church scholar, so there is no authority for these musings)

[Myles Domini]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

[quote]VI. The Necessity of Baptism

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.59 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.60 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.61 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"63 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
[/quote]

I'm not a Church Scholar either but the way I see it the Church's teaching on baptism allows one to hold as a valid theological opinion that just as a baby is baptised by water by the wishes of its parents, the parents can likewise baptise the baby by the means of blood e.g. if the pregnant woman was martyred and her baby died with her or desire e.g. if the pregnancy miscarried.

As for the righteous dead of the Old Testament the paradise to which they were admitted became superflous when Jesus instituted the New Covenant in His blood because the grace of God travels through time and justifies all those open to it past, present and future. The way I imagine it is as follows: Everyone who died righteous under the Old Law was admitted to purgatory to be purified from their sin and once this purification was complete they spent their time waiting in 'paradise'.

Once Jesus had made the sacrifice needed to open the gates of Heaven to them those who were ready left paradise for Heaven and those who were not stayed in purgation until they too were ready to go to Heaven. Paradise effectively was the waiting area but when the doors were opened there was no need to stay in the waiting room. Prior to Christ the souls who had finished their purgation had to go to paradise because Heaven was not an option but under the New Covenant paradise has become superflous. The waiting area became nout more than the end of the corridor when Our Blessed Lord opened the doors to Heaven.

INXC
Myles

[Paphnutius]

Just a few personal thoughts since I too am not a scholar, but it would seem like baptism by desire would have applied to the righteous of the Old Testament.

Also, was there not some tradition in the East about the harrowing of Hell? I am sure that if it is possible to conceive of Adam and Eve being saved, those who brought sin into the world, I am sure that one could conceive of Abraham and Moses.

Besides, they looked and prophesied to the coming of Christ. "Many kings and prophets longed to..." So it would appear as though they would be brought into the Church that way.

Once again, personal musings.

[beatty07]

It would seem that the tradition of Abraham et al being in Heaven is far, far stronger than the "tradition" of limbo. To wit, the Office of Readings for Holy Saturday. I also agree that the parable about Lazarus and the rich man leaves little doubt that Abraham is in Paradise.

It is my impression (not very well informed), that limbo has never in history enjoyed the popularity that it did in the USA in the 20th century. Most people blame it on Irish nuns. However it came about, it's a weird idea. I don't know that we can rule it out...God could make a limbo if He wanted...but there's precious little basis for affirming it.

Did Augustine really have a "limbo" idea? Didn't he end up with something more akin to double predestination?

[Dreamweaver]

[quote]Unlike purgatory, where the dead could eventually graduate to heaven, those stuck in limbo were, well, in limbo, even though they may not have done anything evil that would have banished them from heaven.[/quote]

I'm not a church scholar by any means (this is a popular phrase in this thread!), but aren't the souls in purgatory guranteed a slot in heaven? The addition of "could" makes it sound that some souls will spend eternity in purgatory. Some souls may end up spending time until the end of the world, others will be freed quicker. I thought that all would eventually leave purgatory to enter heaven. Any clarification?

[Paphnutius]

That is my understanding. If you are in puragtory it is because you have already being saved, but are undergoing purification. Purgatory presumes justification.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Nov 30 2005, 09:45 PM']Just a few personal thoughts since I too am not a scholar, but it would seem like baptism by desire would have applied to the righteous of the Old Testament.

Also, was there not some tradition in the East about the harrowing of Hell? I am sure that if it is possible to conceive of Adam and Eve being saved, those who brought sin into the world, I am sure that one could conceive of Abraham and Moses.

Besides, they looked and prophesied to the coming of Christ. "Many kings and prophets longed to..." So it would appear as though they would be brought into the Church that way.

Once again, personal musings.
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no, it is pretty clearly understood by Church Teaching that the just before Christ were in a type of Limbo, the Bible teaches it as the Bosom of Abraham, a section of sheol (the abode of the dead), the place where Christ descended for three days. I offer as my proof the Nicene Creed saying Christ descended into hell... since Christ could obviously not be eternally damned He must have descended into a section of the abode of the dead where the just awaited Christ-- limbo.

the debate is over whether there is a limbo in the Age of Christ. since there is such a similarity of situation (a person who has the stain of original sin, no chance at baptism, and no actual damnable sin committed) it is not too far of a stretch to have them sent to the same place (of course we know that by nature limbo is a place where Christ can, if He chooses, open up and offer salvation to anyone who would accept Him as messiah (thus a person in limbo at the end of an age may end up in either heaven or hell)... He did it at His first coming, He could do it at His second coming feasibly).

so I suppose the commission is studying the question of whether it can totally exclude the possibility of limbo in the New Age of Christ from speculative theology. hmm... I wouldn't like that... well, until the pope does something it'll just be a commission reflecting the majority theological opinion of theologians today... I don't know what exactly the pope would develop to make this no longer even a possibility for Catholics to hold hmm... well, we shall see..

I really don't think they're gonna define anything against limbo at this time. but we shall see...

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 1 2005, 02:24 AM']no, it is pretty clearly understood by Church Teaching that the just before Christ were in a type of Limbo, the Bible teaches it as the Bosom of Abraham, a section of sheol (the abode of the dead), the place where Christ descended for three days.  I offer as my proof the Nicene Creed saying Christ descended into hell... since Christ could obviously not be eternally damned He must have descended into a section of the abode of the dead where the just awaited Christ-- limbo.
[/quote]
Yes I understand that. I did not mean literally hell, for as you said that would mean that Christ was completely cutt off from God. I was addressing the question about Abraham and such being in heaven.

Also I do not think that we could call it a limbo with the above definition for it states that there is no way out of limbo. I agree with you that it was a part of Sheol or Bosom of Abraham, but not technically limbo as it is understood in the above article.

[quote]In the tradition of the Catholic Church, limbo was where the unbaptised went after death - and there was no way out. Limbo was also home to the likes of Moses, Plato and Abraham, and a legion of others from the ancient world.
[/quote]That is what I was addressing with my mention of the harrowing of hell.

[Aloysius]

the traditional view of limbo is that it is the same corner of the abode of the dead where Abraham and pals made their stay.

this artical is horrid in regards to the finer points of both these concepts, as seen by its treatment of purgatory as a place where you might be able to go to heaven (whereas we know all in purgatory are guarenteed heaven eventually). for limbo, there is no progression towards a way out, it is a settled place-- but it is not necessarily eternal because we know that Christ freed souls from limbo once before.

oh, so you were saying that when Christ came and released them from limbo, that could be classified as baptism of desire? interesting theory, but I'm not so sure... Christ descended to preach to the souls in limbo and brought those who accepted Him to heaven (anyone who rejected him at that point would then have gone to hell, they had three whole days to decide and change their minds). He restored their fallen nature from original sin, presumably I suppose since this was all happening on a spiritual level with even Christ's soul separated from His body He didn't use bapitsm of water, but it still seems to me to be a much different situation than the theological possibility of baptism of desire on earth.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 1 2005, 11:35 AM']the traditional view of limbo is that it is the same corner of the abode of the dead where Abraham and pals made their stay.

this artical is horrid in regards to the finer points of both these concepts, as seen by its treatment of purgatory as a place where you might be able to go to heaven (whereas we know all in purgatory are guarenteed heaven eventually).  for limbo, there is no progression towards a way out, it is a settled place-- but it is not necessarily eternal because we know that Christ freed souls from limbo once before.
[/quote]
As I said, it was in reaction to the above mentioned definitions. I did not think that they were correct either.

[quote]oh, so you were saying that when Christ came and released them from limbo, that could be classified as baptism of desire? interesting theory, but I'm not so sure... Christ descended to preach to the souls in limbo and brought those who accepted Him to heaven (anyone who rejected him at that point would then have gone to hell, they had three whole days to decide and change their minds).  He restored their fallen nature from original sin, presumably I suppose since this was all happening on a spiritual level with even Christ's soul separated from His body He didn't use bapitsm of water, but it still seems to me to be a much different situation than the theological possibility of baptism of desire on earth.
[/quote]Quite possible. I was just tossing ideas around.

[N/A Gone]

now, my understanding of purgatory is 2 parts.
1.) finishing the sanctification process(alil me/real me)
2.) a better understand of God and the metaphysic of the world.

Now, purgatory has function, we need to finish the sanctification process before heaven and in that process Know God better, but limbo doesnt prove a function really.

Also, if heaven is with God, and hell is without God..what would limbo be?