Russian Orthodox Patriarch Alexei II

[Era Might]

I'll throw in my requisite plug for John Paul II's Encyclical Letter "Ut Unum Sint". It's a truly great Encyclical, and really sets the standard for the Church's ecumenical vision going forward. I really love this Encyclical. I think it's my favorite of all of John Paul's documents, excepting his works on Evangelization.

[quote]Taking up an idea expressed by Pope John XXIII at the opening of the Council, the Decree on Ecumenism mentions the way of formulating doctrine as one of the elements of a continuing reform. Here it is not a question of altering the deposit of faith, changing the meaning of dogmas, eliminating essential words from them, accommodating truth to the preferences of a particular age, or suppressing certain articles of the Creed under the false pretext that they are no longer understood today. The unity willed by God can be attained only by the adherence of all to the content of revealed faith in its entirety. In matters of faith, compromise is in contradiction with God who is Truth. In the Body of Christ, "the way, and the truth, and the life" (Jn 14:6), who could consider legitimate a reconciliation brought about at the expense of the truth? The Council's Declaration on Religious Freedom Dignitatis Humanae attributes to human dignity the quest for truth, "especially in what concerns God and his Church", and adherence to truth's demands. A "being together" which betrayed the truth would thus be opposed both to the nature of God who offers his communion and to the need for truth found in the depths of every human heart.[/quote]

Edited December 5, 2005 by Era Might

[N/A Gone]

amen...

I dont see unity as denying the tradition and the theology protestants have. They have a thriving faith, we should not ignore that. Ut Unum sint speaks in this The problem most protestants see is that "return to authority of the magistirum" means that they lose what they know in their faith, abandon the very thing that brought them to God and start anew in catholicism. I think this is wrong.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 5 2005, 02:28 AM']amen...

I dont see unity as denying the tradition and the theology protestants have. They have a thriving faith, we should not ignore that. Ut Unum sint speaks in this The problem most protestants see is that "return to authority of the magistirum" means that they lose what they know in their faith, abandon the very thing that brought them to God and start anew in catholicism. I think this is wrong.
[right][post="811303"][/post][/right][/quote]

Well, they do, to an extent. Two contrary propositions cannot coexist. The Eucharist cannot transubstantiate and consubstantiate. It's one or the other. But while particular points of doctrine require renunciation, the overall fulfillment is still positive. As Pope Pius XII said, the Church never held the doctrine of the pagans in contempt, but "purified it from all error and crowned it with Christian wisdom." The same is true of Protestantism.

But I do think that this legitimate drawing upon their Protestant heritage can have a negative dimension. A convert comes to learn, above all else, as Cardinal Newman, the esteemed Anglican convert, once exhorted:

[quote]Conversion, by its very name, implies a radical change of heart. It implies that one’s priorities have been radically reoriented, however much continuity one may experience. It requires a radical humility toward the tradition one is accepting. That is not to say that the convert has nothing to offer from her former tradition–but all such offerings must be made humbly and tentatively, subject to the new rules by which one is playing. This requires an act of ultimate trust in the integrity of the tradition to which one is converting.[/quote]

[N/A Gone]

I agree theology needs to be hammered and "come to a better understanding" as JPII writes. But what I am speaking of more comes to the pratices that protestants use. Doctrine will come together thru dialogue that is fine. But a common accepting over the practices of each other is more needed. Freedoms within worship is one of the big things

[N/A Gone]

ecumenism is not conversion in the sense of protestants all reverting back, ecumenism as sited in Ut Unum Sint is conversion of the hearts on BOTH SIDES coming together to be the unified church.

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='thedude' date='Nov 30 2005, 07:12 PM']I wish Apotheoun were around for input...
[right][snapback]806132[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


we need to get him back here--i miss him TONS

[Era Might]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 5 2005, 02:57 AM']ecumenism is not conversion in the sense of protestants all reverting back, ecumenism as sited in Ut Unum Sint is conversion of the hearts on BOTH SIDES coming together to be the unified church.
[right][snapback]811336[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Ontologically, Protestants are already incorporated into the Church, into Christ's body. They are, however, not in full communion with it.

The indefectible unity of the Church already exists, and cannot cease to exist, as John Paul explains:

[quote]In effect, this unity bestowed by the Holy Spirit does not merely consist in the gathering of people as a collection of individuals. It is a unity constituted by the bonds of the profession of faith, the sacraments and hierarchical communion. The faithful are one because, in the Spirit, they are in communion with the Son and, in him, share in his communion with the Father: "Our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ" (1 Jn 1:3).[/quote]

The ecumenical road does not restore unity to the Church as such, but increases it.

John Paul also clarifies the nature of Ecumenism:

[quote]The ultimate goal of the ecumenical movement is to re-establish full visible unity among all the baptized.[/quote]

Full visible unity, of course, cannot exist apart from "the bonds of the profession of faith, the sacraments and hierarchical communion", as explained above. So Christian unity does imply a reunion under the visible, hierarchical Catholic Church. But it does not require a renunciation of the positive elements of historic Protestantism.

Edited December 5, 2005 by Era Might

[The Joey-O]

Era, I don't know how appropriate this is, but I feel the urge to say it: Era, will you have my babies?





*I require 8 children and a fully grown midget (to cook and clean and what not)

[N/A Gone]

i love u..

[The Joey-O]

Anywho, that's what revprodeji was saying. Of course they'd have to become Catholic. Catholic means "universal" and they'd have to accept the authority of Rome. Most good ecuemenical Protestant theologians recognize this. What revprodeji's saying is they like certain things, like: 90 minute sermons and standing for 45 minutes while singing happy songs about Jesus. These are the things they don't want to lose.

Edited December 5, 2005 by The Joey-O

[N/A Gone]

no..silly fluff, but aspects like this.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='littleflower+JMJ' date='Dec 5 2005, 03:09 AM']we need to get him back here--i miss him TONS
[right][snapback]811349[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
He is in the middle of 3 term papers and I think a dissertation.

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Dec 5 2005, 11:58 AM']He is in the middle of 3 term papers and I think a dissertation.
[right][snapback]812026[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

darn!! I guess I will stop annoying him then

if you talk to him, tell him hi for me! and to come back soon

[son_of_angels]

Personally, I would think the best approach with some of the materially schismatic is simply to re-excommunicate them (personally) and appoint a Catholic patriarch of Moscow, giving him all the titles and privileges of that particular See.

Let 'em get mad.

[Myles Domini]

[url="http://www.saintelias.com/InfoTheo/TaftAnamnesis/TaftAnamnesis1.html"]Anamnesis not Amnesia by Fr Robert Taft SJ[/url]