The Post That You Have All Been Waiting For....

[Jake Huether]

The God I know is a God that isn’t of confusion, am I right? He is a God of order. “For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.” 1 Corinthians 14:33 So anyways, here is something important that I learnt, straight from the Word of God.1 Corinthians 1:18- 2:1-5

Freaky,

In reading this, didn't you at all wonder how Protestantism could be right? If God inDouche is a God of order, then surely sola-scriptura is bunk. I mean, if God is a God of order, how could He lead 30,000 Bible believing churches to different conclusions?

Anyway. I guess what makes sense to one person is not always clear to another.

You are in my prayers.

[hyperdulia again]

Paladin you utterly amaze me.

Freaky Chic, I am praying for you.

[mulls]

Why does it seem that you need to be intellectual, why do you have to be so wise, so philosophical to come into the Church? Why is there so much involved? You have all said it yourself, not in so many words.. But that it takes a brain to get to where you are.

I've only read up to this point so far...I just wanted to echo this with a big AMEN. I've held the same sentiments for a long time now.

Now back to the rest of the thread...

[mulls]

Freaky...beautiful. Couldn't have been said better.

Everybody will profit from that post, to understand what drives at least one person who is not Catholic but who loves Christ (but count me in as the second!)

:)

[Aloysius]

you know, when i read the Catechism and don't understand, i just sit in awe of the complexities of God. that's one of my favorite things to meditate on, His infinite complexity that is beyond my mortal understanding. if i don't get it, i'll pray for wisdom to understand and if i don't get the wisdom, i just realize that the day i enter the Heavenly kingdom i shall know all things, and i will completely understand it and be filled with joy at its beauty.

and when i go to Adoration, stay up praying by candle light all night, something great happens to me, or anything like that, i just sit in awe of the simplicities of God. That's another great thing to do. That God can be so infinitely simple. He's bigger than the entire universe, yet smaller than the tiniest subatomic partical. God never ceases to amaze. God never ceases to amaze. God never ceases to amaze. The simplicity that to do good to God is to simply help and love your neighbor, the complexity that to do good for God you should follow His will constantly praying and avoiding temptation trying to do everything for His greater glory. it's all just so amazing.

God gave us human reason. He expects us to use it to learn more about Him through study of all that He has revealed to humanity. but He doesn't expect that of all, he didn't give all the same amount of smarts in the first place. For those who have the gift of wisdom they are not forbidden from knowing as much as God wants them to know, in fact, God encourages it.

the knowledge of the Greeks are the Greeks trying to explain everything with phylosphy. The Greeks were obsessed with finding truth with their own minds. we find truth through faith inspired by Grace, and then use our minds to know more about it.

if i could understand it all, it wouldn't be of God. do you think us Catholics understand it all? i know when speaking over the internet it seems as if we do, and a lot of times we present ourselves as if we do. sometimes i present myself as if i know everything. wanna know a secret though? i usually don't know everything. i skramble with the Catechism and the Bible and basically the whole PhatMass Reading Room plus Google Search engine to figure some response out if someone challenges me and i can't refute them. but that's the nature of internet convo.

you want a diagram?

This is how much I know:

._____.

This is how much God knows:

<---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

the Church contains whatever of this:<----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> that God has chosen to reveal.

[Jake Huether]

Why does it seem that you need to be intellectual, why do you have to be so wise, so philosophical to come into the Church? Why is there so much involved? You have all said it yourself, not in so many words.. But that it takes a brain to get to where you are.

It amazes me... The fact that when Catholics say you need to be intellectual, then we are told that we are TOO intellectual. But yet, when we say you don't need to be intellectial (i.e. just do what the Church says) then we are told that we are "closed minded" and we "can't think for ourselves."

Sheesh. I don't get it. Should I think. Or should I not think. Rrrrrr. I'm getting a headache.

I guess being a Catholic is a catch-22.

Here's the skinny. I think someone else touched on the same point too a while ago.

Catholicism can be as complex and profound as the ocean itself. Or it can be as simple as a glass of water. It all depends what you want.

If you look deep, and/or you ask deep questions, you will get DEEP responses. If you are simple-minded, then the answers are there too.

Many of the Greatest Saints were simple-minded, if not downright dumb (no offense). But yet, if you analyze their lives, in their simple-mindedness they portrayed and lived unfathamable realities nearly as complex as God Himself!

Which makes me point out the fact that God too can be as comlex as you'd like, or as simple as you'd like.

As it turns out, this phorum spans the gap between intellectually superior (likos, Iron, etc.) to downright dumb (me for example). In order to find the answer you like you simply have to turn on your intellectual-fiddler. LOL.

Intercession of the Saints for instance: Have a question? I could just tell you quite simply the early Christian Church did it, I do it, from experience it works. Period. But then you probably wouldn't accept that as an answer. On the other hand I could give you a nice long post on Biblical support, Church documents, why God would permit it, how it doesn't interfere with the mediation of Christ, etc.

To respond to your question, Why does it seem that you need to be intellectual, why do you have to be so wise, so philosophical to come into the Church?

You don't.

I will simply point out that the questions posed to us by non-Catholics usually require a "deep" answer.

So in a sense you do need to be intellectual in order to understand. But that isn't the fault of the Church. On the contrary, if you were raised Catholic it wouldn't be an issue. You can thank Luther for "dummying" down the Faith so as to make the real faith look complex.

[phatcatholic]

i confess.....

when i first read freaky chic's reply to ironmonk's challenge, i felt aggravated, probably too aggravated. that was my very first, initial reaction. then, as i continued to read this thread, i was immediately humbled by everyone's responses.

then i felt ashamed.

freaky chic, you may not even know me. i'm not sure if i've ever posted in the same thread as you, and i haven't been here at phatmass for very long. but, i want to apologize to you for my initial reaction. yes, i didn't post that aggrivation here. you would have never known that i ever responded that way to you. afterall, i'm sitting in my office, in columbia KY, USA and you are thousands of miles and a trillion galons of ocean water away. but, i felt that my negative spirit served an injustice to your positive one, and the positive spirit that pervades many of the posts in this thread. every sin, even the ones we commit in private, effect the entire Body of Christ.

so.............................i'm sorry.

your brother in Christ,

phatcatholic

Edited December 9, 2003 by phatcatholic

[Freaky Chik]

Jake Heuther- Hey Jake. I like you. And I like yer response. Sure, we don't see eye to eye on things... but that is okay. We're both Creations of the Living God. We both love God. How good is that? So often we forget, don't we, that catholics and non-catholics have so much in common than we first realise. We're both brothers and sisters here So.. *hugs* HI BRO! Hehe. Thanks for saying that I am in your prayers, because it shows that you care. You have a caring nature about you. Don't let it die down. Continue to open yourself to people, it can have a huge impact on ones life!

Hyperdulia again- Yeh, Paladin is amazing, aint' he? And thanks for saying that you'd pray for me. I've been praying for you. Because I know that you struggle with homosexuality, but that also, your heart is in the right place. Don't give up okay. Keep on striving for Christ!

Mulls- Mate, you're an absolute legend. You always seem to have a knack of PMing me at just the right times, with just the right words. Thanks for that. You're a gift from God Continue to serve Him!

Aloysius- You're such a gorgeous person:) I love reading your posts because you're just so... GORGEOUS! haha! You and I are similiar, I love sitting in awe of God too. He is so BIG yet at the same time He is so CLOSE. love ya girl!

phatcatholic- Ofcourse I forgive you Before I even read peoples replies, I chose to forgive them in my heart already. What's the point of holding a grudge? What's the point of harbouring unforgiveness? Also, thank you for that post. That was humbling! Mate, you are a man of God. A man of God is able to confess something like that, even when no one would even know. You know, you just taught me something then. It's the actions of people that often teach me. Stay in God dude!!!!

[Aloysius]

Freaky, you're SOO COOL!

us Catholics need more ppl like you... hey, you wanna join the Church?

hehe, i know, you've already got your heart made up. don't close it to the possibility though. just cuz you don't understand it doesn't mean it's not right.

anyway, love ya sis in Christ. i shall see you around the threads! B)

[littleflower+JMJ]

:D :D :D sammy eats yummy worms. :D :D :D

:wub: girl you rock my socks off!!

[PedroX]

Forgive me for being undeniably rude, and a major downer to this love fest, but you failed to post a response to the Cathechism. You failed to answer how Catholicism is wrong, and prove it with scripture, or the church fathers. I'm glad you're able to forgive us Catholics, but I'm not impressed. I am sorry that you have chosen to turn away from the truth.

peace...

[Robyn]

Sammy...I'm proud of you!

Don't EVER feel like you're not intellectual or dumb etc...coz God gave u a brain and u certainly use it! Just looking at you or what you write is proof of that!

You're a gorgeous reflection of God's light....

...lol...have been listening to Planet Shakers REFLECTOR album! Luv that song! It's Sammy's song! :lol:

[Trooper4DaHolyG]

yeah Sammy sure is a REFLECTOR! she wants to let the whole world know that HE is living in HER!

hey Pedro man, I don't think any of us will be satisfied, it shows one of our distinct faults in character and at some times it shows strength in character. WE ARE HUMAN!

if Sammy could prove the catcheism wrong... what good would that do? You have your faith grounded in the Church fathers who have traditionaly brought to you the catcheism, so how could her mere words prove you wrong?

You could come up to me (which I know you won't) give me cold hard facts that there was no Jesus Christ and that He did not die on the Cross for the remissions of my sins. I would spit at that book and the history you try to show me, my heart has been set and it will never doubt, I believe beyond knowledge.... I believe through intimacy....

-Troops

[Freaky Chik]

Forgive me for being undeniably rude, and a major downer to this love fest, but you failed to post a response to the Cathechism.  You failed to answer how Catholicism is wrong, and prove it with scripture, or the church fathers.  I'm glad you're able to forgive us Catholics, but I'm not impressed.  I am sorry that you have chosen to turn away from the truth.

peace...

Pedrox, there needs no forgiveness How is it rude for you to be openly honest? You're an honest person Pedrox, and that is a good thing. Don't you stop being honest. Don't you stop being open. Also Pedrox, I know that you're a person of love. Maybe that post didn't show much of the love, but I know that you are. *looks into your heart* I can see it. I can see it because you want me to know what you believe the truth is, and that is love. Don't be afraid to love more though. Don't be afraid to be embraced by more love. Love is so important, hey?

Also, I know I "failed" to answer how catholicism is wrong... I wrote that in my first post...

Yes, I did not prove the Caetichsm (still can’t spell that hey! Bah!) wrong. Yes, I failed your challenge. But to me, that does not matter. I do not mind. Because I know the Lord Almighty. I know Him. He chose me, and you, to be His friend… His daughter/son… He doesn’t want me to come to Him using my brain, using research, using historial facts or evidence… He called me without all that. And with that, I am content.

I have learnt who I am in Christ. I have learnt that although I do not match up to your standards, that is okay. I have learnt that although I failed your challenge, I have not failed God’s challenge- to step out in faith and follow Him. “Come, and follow me.”

Go for God Pedrox!!! Just keep on GOING!

Robyn and trooper: I love you both so much Thanks for the diet coke today mr.troops, it was grouse. we gotta do it again sometime soon. u too robyn! i miss u! *hugs all*

[Dave]

Mullls and Freaky:

Ya know, even Protestantism can be intellectually complex for people. Like people have said already, it's as simple or complex as YOU make it. Heck, some of the greatest saints of the Church were simple, unlearned people (e.g. St. Bernadette, St. Faustina, and many more). They may have lacked intellectual knowledge, but what they DID have was a desire for the Truth. Truth is truth; it isn't whatever you want truth to be. And if you search diligently enough for it, hopefully you'll be led to it (if you allow yourself to be).