The Post That You Have All Been Waiting For....

[mp15]

If Freaky Chik studies Catholicism and comes to the conclusion that it is Christ's Church--if she rejects the Church, then she rejects Christ.

However--if Freaky Chik studies Catholicism and comes to the conclusion that it is NOT Christ's Church--if she rejects the Church, she is not rejecting Christ.

Huh???????????????????

Is the church Christ's church or isn't it? If someone studies Catholicism and still comes to the conclusion that it is not Christ's church then they are STILL rejecting Christ.

Sheesh, this current wave of ecumenism is going to destroy the church. The church did teach at one time that salvation can only come through the church. What has changed in that belief?

The world, and the church is becoming more gutless with each passing day.

Edited December 22, 2003 by mp15

[CatholicAndFanatical]

The Catholic Church is the fullfillment of the Jewish Faith.

Think of it this way, before Christ was here, you had to be Jewish to be in Union with God. Non-Jewish people were not 'saved' if you will.

Christ came along and brought the gentiles into the mix, notice He didnt create something different, but rather included the gentiles WITH the Jews, Still ONE TRUE CHURCH, but rather containing Jews and Gentiles, but ONE FAITH.

Why then is it so hard for non Catholics to believe that Christ would only want One Faith? God had one Faith for over 3000 years and the Jewish faith had an authority that did not stop at the time of Christ.

I back my statement I made earlier about not having complete happiness outside the Catholic Church. Its only here that you can recieve His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. Its only here that you can get real Absolution for your sins that seperate us from Him, Its only here where you have real Authority, given to Peter and His successors.

The Catholic Church is the fullfillment of the Jewish Faith, it wasnt meant to co-exists with the Jewish Faith, but rather expand upon it.

God Bless,

CatholicAndFanatical

[dUSt]

Huh???????????????????

Is the church Christ's church or isn't it? If someone studies Catholicism and still comes to the conclusion that it is not Christ's church then they are STILL rejecting Christ.

This isn't a theological argument. It's a common sense argument. If Freaky Chik doesn't believe that Christ is in the Church, she is not rejecting Christ when she rejects the Church. Personally, I believe that if she truly studies the Church with an open heart and all her effort, it would be impossible to deny that Christ is present within it.

Sheesh, this current wave of ecumenism is going to destroy the church. The church did teach at one time that salvation can only come through the church. What has changed in that belief?

Nothing has changed. There is no salvation outside the Church.

"We guard with care the faith that we have received from the Church, for without ceasing, under the action of God's Spirit, this deposit of great price, as if in an excellent vessel, is constantly being renewed and causes the very vessel that contains it to be renewed." - St Irenaeus of Lyons

The world, and the church is becoming more gutless with each passing day.

Let us pray that we may look inside of ourselves before passing judgement upon others.

God bless.

[mp15]

Nothing has changed. There is no salvation outside the Church.

Ok, so then why do we (as Catholics), lead others (non Catholics), to believe that there is? Why are some Catholics so afraid to stand up and proclaim it?

Let us pray that we may look inside of ourselves before passing judgement upon others.

Uhmmmm, sorry. Don't think I was judging anyone. Just making an observation ;)

[dUSt]

Ok, so then why do we (as Catholics), lead others (non Catholics), to believe that there is? Why are some Catholics so afraid to stand up and proclaim it?

I don't know.

[Anna]

One who studies the teachings of the Catholic Church, then subsequently rejects those teachings as false or not worthy of belief, has rejected the teachings; therefore he/she has rejected Christ.

Either you're in the bark, or you're in the water.

Pax Christi. <><

Edited December 23, 2003 by Anna

[Guest notthereyet]

Nothing has changed. There is no salvation outside the Church.

Hey guys and girls, I'm a non-Catholic, and i have some questions for you

So when you say that there is no salvation outside of "the Church," are you implying that Catholicism makes up that one "church?" I mean are you guys saying that if someone is not part of the Catholic church then they cannot recieve salvation?

Just an honest question, God bless you all

In Christ

[Dave]

Hey guys and girls, I'm a non-Catholic, and i have some questions for you

So when you say that there is no salvation outside of "the Church," are you implying that Catholicism makes up that one "church?" I mean are you guys saying that if someone is not part of the Catholic church then they cannot recieve salvation?

Just an honest question, God bless you all

In Christ

1. Yes, Catholicism makes up that one Church.

2. If someone is truly ignorant of the fact that the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus Christ founded yet truly desire to follow God, then they're part of the Church, albeit imperfectly. But if someone knows, or is at least in a position where they ought to know, that the Catholic Church is Jesus' Church and rejects it anyway, then they can't be saved.

[Anna]

Actually, what we're saying is that Jesus Christ saves souls, through His Church--the one He founded on Peter--the Catholic Church. We don't say "we're saved," or "you're not saved," for judging souls belongs to Jesus, not us. But He built a Church, and prayed that we would all be One. One baptism, One Faith, One Lord.

Oh, and welcome to phatmass!

Pax Christi. <><

Edited December 23, 2003 by Anna

[phatcatholic]

notthereyet,

did u not read my three posts?

shew! the protestant, "non-denominational" perception of Christian unity frustrates me more than any other aspect of apologetics.

I honestly pray every night for us Christians, that we may once again see that God NEVER intended for us to seperate into our different "denominations", I'm sorry if you don't believe that Catholicism is a denomination, i didn't know how else to say it. Satan was the one behind the splitting of Christ's one church.

how can you say this about denominationalism and still be ok w/ ur denominationalism? if u are not Catholic you are another denomination. if you are not Catholic then--by ur own admission--you belong to splinter church that broke away b/c of the exploits of Satan. remember: u said it, not me.

And when i say "one church" i do not mean Catholicism. What i mean is Christ's church.

prove to me that the Catholic Church is not Christ's Church. how else could you possibly describe the church before the reformation? how could it be anything else but the Catholic Church?

--in 80 AD, we have Pope Clement I affirming apostolic tradition.

--in 70 AD, we have the Didache quoting from the Catholic book of Sirach.

--in 189 AD we have Iraneus affirming apostolic succession.

--in 80 AD we have Hermas affirming the authority of the pope.

--in 208 AD we have Clement of Alexandria affirming the intercession of saints.

--in 248 AD we have Origin affirming the perpetual virginity of Mary

--in 217 AD, we have Hppolytus refering to Mary as the "mother of God"

--in 74 AD, we have the Letter of Barnabus condemning contraception

--in 110 AD, we have Ignatius of Antioch affirming the Real Presence in the Eucharist

--in 151 AD, we have Justin Martyr affirming "rebirth" through water baptism

--in 70 AD, we have the Didache affirming the act of confession to the church

--in 181 AD, we have Theophilus of Antioch affirming the sacrement of confirmation

--in 70 AD, we have the Didache affirming the sacrifice of the mass

--in 160 AD, we have in the Acts of Paul and Thecla a belief in Purgatory

HOWEVER, the most important date is probably this one:

--in 110 AD, we have Igantius of Antioch proclaiming that outside the Church there is not salvation.

"outside of what church?" you may ask. i say, outside of the Catholic Church. afterall, in the time of Ignatius we see a Church that is fundamentally Catholic. how this could ever be questioned i am not sure. afterall, does this look like any other church? does any other church profess a belief in apostolic tradition, in apostolic succession, in Mary as the "mother of God," in the Real Presence in the Eucharist? I tell you, these are Catholic beliefs, b/c the Church from the very beginning--Christ's Church--is the Catholic Church. and these "catholic" beliefs expressed as early as 70 AD are the same beliefs that the Catholic Church teaches today.

"12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by[3] one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many...

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. "

Notice that this verse does not say some people were baptized by the Holy Spirit, i.e. - Catholics, and non-Catholics were not. This verse says we were all baptized by the same Holy Spirit, thus making us all one church. This agrees with what "chasinghim" said.

how can you possibly claim a unity in the Spirit? a unity in baptism? in repsonse to this, i repeat my examination of Eph 4:1-6:

"make every effort to keep the unity of the spirit...."

unity of the spirit--that is very important. but, when i look at protestantism i see 20,000 denominations, which in itself is cause for question, but the clincher is this--every single one of those claims inspiration by the Holy Spirit to believe what they believe. to one the spirit says "sola fide." to another, the spirit says "sola scriptura." to another the spirit says "calvinist predestination." to another the spirit says "you must speak in tongues." the spirit is contradicting itself here. this definitely doesn't seem like "unity of spirit" to me.

"there is one body and one spirit..."

this part of the verse is SO important (shew! i need to calm down, sorry, hehe). protestants claim that they are one in a spiritual union. but this only fulfills half of the obligation. the verse here calls for a unity of body and spirit. a body is a visible thing, it is something concrete, something you can touch. now, one may reply that the word "body" here is used symbolically, as in a spiritual body. but, the fact that it separates the two into "one body" and "one spirit" shows that there is a definite distinction between the two, that there are two unions. the catholic church can stake claim to this unity. we are visibly one--we are one body--b/c we have one earthly leadership, a hierarchy of bishops and a pope to which we all adhere to. we are also one body in the sacraments and in the mass. the same elements exist in every single mass held on earth.

our mystical union comes in our united belief. you will never find St. John Catholic Church teaching one thing, and St. Peter's Church down the street teaching something else. our mystical union is also seen in the one Spirit that sanctifies us in one baptism and who protects the entire Church from falling into error.

can Protestantism really claim such a unity. i could maaayyyybee be stretched into believing a unity in spirit (even though i think of shown that this isn't so), but a unity in body is impossible.

"just as you were called to one hope when you were called...."

even this one hope means different things to different protestant denominations. afterall this refers to a hope for salvation. but, this type of hope does not even exist to all those who believe in "assurance of salvation." where is their need to hope if they are assured of heaven already? this "one hope" is also dependent on how we define salvation. as i also showed in the "christianity.com" thread, salvation means many different things to many different denominations. so, i don't see "one hope" in protestantism either.

"one Lord, one faith, one baptism...."

is their one Lord in protestantism? many denominations define this "one Lord" in many different ways. pentecostals, for example, don't even believe in the trinity, which is paramount in describing our Lord. this example alone should suffice, but there are more. calvinists think the Lord chose a certain number of elect, and damns the rest. the Lord saves some upon a profession of faith, but others only when they speak in tongues, or only when they are baptized. this does not look like the same Lord to me.

is their one faith in protestantism? not when so many protestants put their faith in so many different things. some have faith that God will always heal everyone who asks for it, and when He doesn't its for lack of faith. some have faith that you WILL speak in tongues when u recieve the Holy Spirit. some have faith that all they need is faith, and they are saved forever. some have faith in a one-person God. others have faith in a three-person God.

with all the definitions of baptism and wether it is required, protestants are not united in one baptism either. some say its only symbolic. others say thru baptism ur sins are not erased, just covered over like a coat. others say that all ur sins are wiped away. still others say that baptism is not necessary at all. way to many different baptisms to be one...

does this all make sense? again, i'm sorry if i was a little over-zealous or offensive. those verses just really mean alot to me.

i know that i am coming on strong here, but its just that i have heard these arguments so many times before. i guess i get frustrated w/ myself b/c i have never managed to get anyone to understand or accept the Catholic side of the story.

what else can i do for you in order to better establish my point? please, let me know. good luck, and may God bless you in your search for truth,

phatcatholic

[PedroX]

Wow, I shudder to think how incoherent I apparrently was.

Anna, and MP,

Sorry if I was viewed as being too ecumenical (Ha, if you would call my friends, and tell them that it would be great!)

In my mind what I was trying to say was: If someone (for example Freaky Chic) were to study all of Catholicism and not see the Truth, they would most likely be "invincably ignorant". This is different from seeing the Truth, and deciding against it. It is also different from not looking for the Truth and just being plain ol' ignorant. Most Protestants fall into that last category. Also it is possible that many Protestants will be saved because of the Graces given to humanity through the Catholic Church. Again, this rests entirely in the hands of God and is possible only because The Church continues to be a conduit for Grace to a starving world.

Sorry if I caused consternation. Anna, I promise to be good from now on.

peace...

[Guest notthereyet]

If someone is truly ignorant of the fact that the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus Christ founded yet truly desire to follow God, then they're part of the Church, albeit imperfectly.  But if someone knows, or is at least in a position where they ought to know, that the Catholic Church is Jesus' Church and rejects it anyway, then they can't be saved.

Hey again guys, I pray once again that this post will bring us all closer to Christ.

But now i have a few questions for you all...I am a non-catholic just so you all know, however, my whole family is pretty much catholics, so I have been to the Catholic mass, i have learned what I can, however i have so much more to learn about it, and that's the whole reason i'm starting to do this posting thing, to learn more about the catholic church.

Okay, according to I believe Romans 10:9-10, pardon me if i'm a verse or two off, i don't have a Bible near me, one does not have to be a part of the Catholic church in order to be saved. I mean it says "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, then you will be saved."

I am definetly in a "position where they ought to know" that the Catholic church is Jesus' church, however i do not believe this. one sec guys, haha, just take a deep breath and let me finish. I do believe that anyone in the catholic church that, for that matter, anyone anywhere that does what Romans 10:9-10 says will recieve salvation. I am not the judge, i cannot say who will recieve salvation, however the Bible is clear in this matter, God is the judge of this, and according to romans 10:9-10 we get a clear picture of what is needed to "recieve salvation." So i do believe completely that Catholics can recieve salvation, just as much as non-catholics, however i do not believe that those who reject that the Catholic church is Jesus' church will not recieve salvation.

i mean romans 10:9-10 does not include the catch phrase that we must believe that the Catholic church is Christ's church, there's no small print, it's simple, if you confess that Christ is Lord, and believe it, then you will be saved

God bless you all

In Christ

[phatcatholic]

notthereyet,

in regards to salvation outside of the Catholic Church, the following article may be of help to you:

The doctrine that "Outside the Church there is no salvation" is one that is constantly misinterpreted by those who won't submit to the Magisterium of the Church. Faith does not depend upon our ability to reason to the truth but on our humility before the Truth presented to us by those to whom Christ entrusted that task. This is why the First Vatican Council taught that it is the task of the Magisterium ALONE to determine and expound the meaning of the Tradition - including "outside the Church no salvation."

Concerning this doctrine the Pope of Vatican I, Pius IX, spoke on two different occasions. In an allocution (address to an audience) on December 9th, 1854 he said:

We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?

Again, in his encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863 addressed to the Italian bishops, he said:

It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.

These statements are consistent with the understanding of the Church contained in the documents of Vatican II, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as well as explaining why the rigorist position of Fr. Feeney (that all must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved) has been condemned by the Magisterium. It is ironic that precisely those who know their obligation to remain united to the Magisterium, and thus on whom this doctrine is morally binding, keep themselves from union with the Roman See on this point.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL

i hope this helps. thank you for your honest question, and WELCOME to phatmass!

pax christi,

phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

So i do believe completely that Catholics can recieve salvation, just as much as non-catholics, however i do not believe that those who reject that the Catholic church is Jesus' church will not recieve salvation.

notthereyet,

to an extent, we are in agreement on this. as the previous article i posted reveals, catholics fully believe that non-catholics can be saved. however, they are saved b/c of the imperfect unity they share w/ the Catholic Church. so, not all non-catholics are necessarily "outside of the Church."

see what i mean?

let me know if this is not clear........pax christi,

phatcatholic

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Okay, according to I believe Romans 10:9-10, pardon me if i'm a verse or two off, i don't have a Bible near me, one does not have to be a part of the Catholic church in order to be saved. I mean it says "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, then you will be saved."

notthereyet, Pax Christi. Alot of protestants like to take one verse and base their lives on it, or even create a whole new church from it. But there is alot more to it besides professing a faith in Christ.

What do you suppose would happen, if you profess your faith in Christ but yet, dont eat the flesh of the Son of Man?

For in John 6:54 Jesus said "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life"

so, you profess your faith, but dont eat the flesh, you dont have eternal life right? Dont you think they go together, its an all or nothing deal?

If you profess your faith in Christ thats good, but thats not all thats needed. If you profess your faith in Christ AND eat His flesh and Drink His blood, you will have eternal life. Cant cancel one without canceling another. Only in the Catholic Church can you have both.

God Bless,

CatholicAndFanatical