The Post That You Have All Been Waiting For....

[phatcatholic]

first off, in regards to wether freaky chic is "invincibly ignorant" or wether she is in fact denying Christ, i think that the words of Pope Piu IX are important here:

We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?

Pius is saying here, and i would agree, that it is not our place to emphatcially state that someone is no longer "invincibly ignorant." i do think that, b/c we are responsible for spreading the truth, we have the right to suggest that someone may in fact be turning their back on the Truth and on Christ--but it is not up to us to state the affirmative.

secondly, to comment briefly on "chasinghim"'s comments, urs is an opinion held by many protestants, and especially the "non-denominational" kind. however, i just cannot seem to see this unity in protestantism--or christianity in general--that you would have me see. for the sake of brevity (i'm learning my lesson ), i will save my reasons why for another post.

pax christi,

phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

chasinghim,

ok, before i go into why this unity does not exist in protestantism, we must first establish that unity is necessary, and then exactly what type of unity this is. i quote Brock Fowler in an article found at Biblical Evidence for Catholicism (this is somewhat long, but i implore you to read it):

I suppose one can be divisive about unity: which should be avoided. However our strong concern with unity is scriptural:

John 17:20-23: [Jesus praying to the Father for his disciples:] I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father art in me, and I in thee so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.

Notice two things which are striking about this passage: - Jesus seldom repeats himself in the Bible, but twice Christ tells us that we are to have the unbelievably profound unity shared between the Father and the Son (3 times counting Jn 17:11). - Twice Christ tells us that a reason for unity is to spread and maintain the faith: that the world may believe/know that God sent him, so that the world may be Christian. The inverse of this statement is that if we are not profoundly united, the world will not believe that God sent Christ as his only begotten Son: indeed, Christian division has been associated with falling levels of faith in western society since the Reformation. So many claims of truth have been made with such certainty--even within Christianity--that the very notion of truth is now questioned. The anger, hatred, self-righteousness, and persecution--even within Christianity--has lent credence to the notion that religion needs to be a purely private matter: if it gets out into the public square, bitterness and even war will follow.

Christ even gives us a reason why disunity will result in falling levels of faith: Mt 12:25: [speaking of spiritual kingdoms, Jesus said:] Every Kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city, or house divided against itself will stand.

The increasingly secular mindset of our country has proven disastrous in terms of both the destruction of the social fabric (broken homes, drug abuse, crime, etc.) and of lost souls. We tend to be angry at those of a secular mind-set: but Christ seems to be telling is that the problem is us: Christians. We are the reason for falling levels of faith. God asked, even begged, for unity, but we spit in His face and did it our way. . .and, as always, paid the price for our disobedience. It is tragic that we hurt so many others in the process.

If this was all the Bible said about unity, it would be enough to require that we must be obsessed about unity. But unity, as one of the central principles of Christianity, is strongly expressed elsewhere too.

Acts 4:32: [Early believers were:] . . .of one heart and soul. . .

Historically, our divisions came over differing interpretations of Paul's epistles. There is perhaps some irony, then, that Paul strongly preached unity.

Eph 4:1-16: [Paul calls for us to be:] eager to maintain the unity of the spirit: one hope, one faith, one baptism [and says we are to be like the various parts of the body which work together].

Phil 1:27-28: [Church members are called to:] . . .stand firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel, and not frightened in anything by your opponents. [One mind, wow! We certainly don't have that with almost infinite variations in doctrine among denominations].

Phil 2:2: [Paul asks the church in Philippi to complete his joy:] . . .by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.

Phil 2:1-4: So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any incentive of love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, 2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. 3 Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility count others better than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.

This doesn't sound like a vision of unity limited to a few "essentials" of faith--while characterized by endless bickering and division. Paul boldly confronted Peter when he thought Peter was wrong, but he never formed a breakaway church. To the contrary:

1 Cor 1:10-13: I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgement. For it has been reported to me by Choloes people that there is quarreling among you, my brethren. What I mean is that each one of you says, "I belong to Paul," or "I belong to Apollos," or "I belong to Cephas," or "I belong to Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? [This is what we might now think of as denominationalism].

1 Pet 3:8-9: [Writing to Christians, Peter urges:] Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love of the brethren, a tender heart and a humble mind. 9 Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, for to this you have been called, that you may obtain a blessing.

Like the above passage, there are almost countless passages in the New Testament, telling Christians how we are view and act toward other Christians, such as:

Rom 12:10: Love one another with brotherly affection; out do one another in showing honor.

These attitudes have not characterized Protestant-Catholic relations--or even Protestant-Protestant relations (among differing denominations)--since the Reformation (which is not to say Catholics are without sin in this regard, even among ourselves!)

But as powerful as all of these Bible citations are, perhaps even more powerful is the images that the Bible gives us as Christianity having a profound organic unity.

In 1 Cor 10:17, 12:12-31; Eph 4:4-16; Rom 12:4-8; Col 1:18; Eph 3:6: Paul speaks of Christians as all being part of one body--what happens when you divide a body?

Another recurring theme is that of Christians as being a temple or house. What happens to a building where chunks are taken out or walls come apart.

1 Pet 2:4-10: Come to him, to that living stone, rejected by men but in God's sight chosen and precious; 5 and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, [remember, Jesus said that a house divided cannot stand] to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. . .[Peter next speaks of Christ as a cornerstone, and then:]. . .You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were no people but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy but now you have received mercy.

(Nations should be united: if they are not, they are weak. The same with a people. God is almost constantly referred to as a "Father" in the New Testament: what is the Bible's view of fathers who have more than one family?)

Eph 2:19-22: So then you [the gentiles of Ephesus] are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

1 Cor 3:3-11: While there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh, and behaving like ordinary men? 4 For when one says, I belong to Paul, and another, I belong to Apollos, are you not merely men? 5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8 He who plants and he who waters are equal, and each shall receive his wages according to his labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. 10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

This notion of Christ being a cornerstone, foundation stone, or foundation is found elsewhere. Isaiah prophesied it in Is 28:16, and Christ Himself in Mt 21:42.

The organic unity described by our Lord:

Jn 15:1-21: I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. . .Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. . . By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples. . .

One vine.

There are also matrimonial references concerning the relationship between Christ and His church: polygamy is condemned by the Bible.

But how can we be profoundly united? We love truth, and can't compromise on it. We have different good faith interpretations of the Bible. That was my view, and then I noticed that the Bible discusses disunity a lot: and it is NEVER characterized by being the result of love of truth or good faith. It is always simply viewed as being the result of sin and Satan. Those who bring about disunity are always condemned in the Bible in very harsh terms. We are divided because of Satan--who doesn't want the gates of hell conquered.

Unity is one of the central principles of Christianity.

See now the type of unity we must possess?

from here i'll go now to a detailed exegesis of Eph 4:1-6........in another post. (stay w/ me, i'm almost done :D )

pax christi,

phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

chasinghim,

this is part of a post i made in another thread. it includes a closer look at Eph 4:1-6 that i feel you may benefit from. first, the verse in its entirety:

Eph 4:1-6 I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love, striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace: one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

now, lets break this up and see what we find:

"make every effort to keep the unity of the spirit...."

unity of the spirit--that is very important. but, when i look at protestantism i see 20,000 denominations, which in itself is cause for question, but the clincher is this--every single one of those claims inspiration by the Holy Spirit to believe what they believe. to one the spirit says "sola fide." to another, the spirit says "sola scriptura." to another the spirit says "calvinist predestination." to another the spirit says "you must speak in tongues." the spirit is contradicting itself here. this definitely doesn't seem like "unity of spirit" to me.

"there is one body and one spirit..."

this part of the verse is SO important (shew! i need to calm down, sorry, hehe). protestants claim that they are one in a spiritual union. but this only fulfills half of the obligation. the verse here calls for a unity of body and spirit. a body is a visible thing, it is something concrete, something you can touch. now, one may reply that the word "body" here is used symbolically, as in a spiritual body. but, the fact that it separates the two into "one body" and "one spirit" shows that there is a definite distinction between the two, that there are two unions. the catholic church can stake claim to this unity. we are visibly one--we are one body--b/c we have one earthly leadership, a hierarchy of bishops and a pope to which we all adhere to. we are also one body in the sacraments and in the mass. the same elements exist in every single mass held on earth.

our mystical union comes in our united belief. you will never find St. John Catholic Church teaching one thing, and St. Peter's Church down the street teaching something else. our mystical union is also seen in the one Spirit that sanctifies us in one baptism and who protects the entire Church from falling into error.

can Protestantism really claim such a unity. i could maaayyyybee be stretched into believing a unity in spirit (even though i think of shown that this isn't so), but a unity in body is impossible.

"just as you were called to one hope when you were called...."

even this one hope means different things to different protestant denominations. afterall this refers to a hope for salvation. but, this type of hope does not even exist to all those who believe in "assurance of salvation." where is their need to hope if they are assured of heaven already? this "one hope" is also dependent on how we define salvation. as i also showed in the "christianity.com" thread, salvation means many different things to many different denominations. so, i don't see "one hope" in protestantism either.

"one Lord, one faith, one baptism...."

is their one Lord in protestantism? many denominations define this "one Lord" in many different ways. pentecostals, for example, don't even believe in the trinity, which is paramount in describing our Lord. this example alone should suffice, but there are more. calvinists think the Lord chose a certain number of elect, and damns the rest. the Lord saves some upon a profession of faith, but others only when they speak in tongues, or only when they are baptized. this does not look like the same Lord to me.

is their one faith in protestantism? not when so many protestants put their faith in so many different things. some have faith that God will always heal everyone who asks for it, and when He doesn't its for lack of faith. some have faith that you WILL speak in tongues when u recieve the Holy Spirit. some have faith that all they need is faith, and they are saved forever. some have faith in a one-person God. others have faith in a three-person God.

with all the definitions of baptism and wether it is required, protestants are not united in one baptism either. some say its only symbolic. others say thru baptism ur sins are not erased, just covered over like a coat. others say that all ur sins are wiped away. still others say that baptism is not necessary at all. way to many different baptisms to be one...

does this all make sense? again, i'm sorry if i was a little over-zealous or offensive. those verses just really mean alot to me.

hopefully now, you'll understand a little bit better where catholics are coming from. thank you for making an honest effort to consider our side of the story. good luck in your search for truth

pax christi,

phatcatholic

[CatholicAndFanatical]

nicely done phatcatholic, you put the phat in mass

ok..that was dumb..i leave the jokes to Lil Red and others

[phatcatholic]

hehe, thanks bro, i do what i can...........while at the same time realizing that "i must decrease so that he may increase."

[PedroX]

I did not try to guess anybody's motives, or assign judgement. I was pointing out that Catholic and Fanatical's statement is both logically consistent, simple to understand, and in fact is in line with official Catholic teaching. I also gave examples of how this teaching may or may not impact Freaky Chic and her "response" to the challenge.

I think Dust may have said it more politely than I, but that we said the same thing. Its just a growing frustration as I watch us all sidestep some basic tenents of our faith that aren't really Politically Correct. One is that there is no salvation aside from the Catholic Church. If God grants His grace to a Baptist, or a Buddhist or a Muslim, that is because of the faith of His One Holy and Apostolic Church. Period.

There is one True Church...The Catholic Church. Outside of that church, there is no unity.

I know that all of this sounds like I've lost my mind, or that I've gone away from my usual insistence on Charity, but I feel that it is important to restate these truths. To be sure, there is no excuse of a lack of manners, and I apologize if I have been rude. However, plain spokenness is not neccessarily rudeness.

peace...

[cmotherofpirl]

ok...hey everyone...once again...i am NOT catholic but i am running as fast as i possibly can after jesus...

First of all...in my opinion church is the body of believers not some denomination...So therefore there is only ONE TRUE CHURCH and that is the church of all believers not just the believers who call themselves catholic...i essence it all boils down to we love Jesus and should strive to become more like him everyday....also i think that it is possible for me to have the same relationship with God that a catholic does...and i am really trying hard to see both sides...cuz when u catholics(sorry i dont know how else to put it) talk about stuff that i may not find true i find myself aggravated...which helps me to feel what u guys feel when we "non-catholics" say what we say...i dont know if that makes sense at all ..but i tried...

Thanks for listening...Im trying to take in all viewpoints....ill talk to u all later

peace

THe Church is one faith and one baptism and a body of believers, it is the one Church Jesus left behind. Entrance into this a Church is thru Baptism , and sustained thru Communion. Sinners are forgiven and return to the fold thru Confession. This is biblical, this is the Church Jesus left behind, this is the Catholic Church. ( all the scripture related to this is in the Apologetic section)

We are not a cult, sect or demonination, we are the Church founded by Jesus Christ in 33 AD.

It is not possible for a non-catholic to have the same relationship with Jesus because they do not have the same connection to Christ thru the Church. You can have the same feelings, but not the same physical connection we have. We are related to Christ thru physical acts: water poured on our heads for baptism, the accidents of bread and wine in Communion ( Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus), the oil of gladness used for annointings of the sick, Confirmation, and consecration of the hands of a priest. We are physically linked to Christ in a way you cannot imagine, God created the physical world and saw it was good ( in genesis) and He uses it to connect us to Himself. It is a connection to reality that goes way beyond feelings of love. You become the branch of the Vine.

People can have a wonderful relationship to Jesus outside the Church, but not the physical relationship complete relationship found inside the Church. This is not bragging, merited or anyway deserved by us, but it is the truth. THere are many converts here that can explain it better so talk to them.

[phatcatholic]

well said cmom

[Guest notthereyet]

"I respect you and all non-Catholics as my seperated brethren, but you will only have complete happiness when you are in Christs Church, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church."

Hey fellow believers in Christ

I am new to this site, and was introduced to it by my Catholic friend. I am a Non-Catholic, however, that does not at all mean I am not pursuing Christ.

First off, I completely agree with what "chasinghim" said. I also, am trying extremely hard to survey my motives for making this post. I just introduced my older, wiser, sister to this site, and she told me to make sure that by making this post I am trying to bring us all closer to Christ, and I feel that that is why I'm doing it, so I'm going to continue.

I feel that all of you are my brothers in Christ, no matter if you are a Catholic or a non-Catholic. I honestly pray every night for us Christians, that we may once again see that God NEVER intended for us to seperate into our different "denominations", I'm sorry if you don't believe that Catholicism is a denomination, i didn't know how else to say it. Satan was the one behind the splitting of Christ's one church. And when i say "one church" i do not mean Catholicism. What i mean is Christ's church.

I know that Catholics as well as non-catholics believe the Bible to be completely true, so I am taking that for granted in saying this. This is a direct quote from 1 Corinthians 12.

"12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by[3] one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many...

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. "

Notice that this verse does not say some people were baptized by the Holy Spirit, i.e. - Catholics, and non-Catholics were not. This verse says we were all baptized by the same Holy Spirit, thus making us all one church. This agrees with what "chasinghim" said.

Second, I completely and totally believe that you are all following Christ whole-heartedly, and I believe we will all be together one day in Heaven. However, I am honestly surprised by what some of you guys/girls have been saying. To first say that I will not have complete happiness until I am part of the Catholic church, that truly amazes me. "I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full..." (John 10:10) Christ has granted me life to the full, he does not say that I need to be part of the Catholic church to have life to the full. I'm sorry guys, I love you all, but to say that i can not have complete happiness until I am part of the catholic church is, idk, i don't know how to say it, saddening.

The other thing, is non-Catholics are not your seperated brethren. We are your brethren now and forever more. Just like the Bible says, we are "one body", that means that we are brethren both now and forever.

I truly hope that this post did not cause any more seperation then there already is, in fact, i hope it brought us closer together. I love all of you, because christ loved me first. I hope you guys will continue to be great lights for Christ, take care

In Christ

[Aloysius]

hey notthereyet

kewlpost..igetchya...but...

history tells me that for 1000years there was a united Church, and that Church was Catholic. If the seperation is the work of the devil, then you must admit that the devil worked through who you would call reformers but i would call deformers, right? i mean, they ARE the ones who caused the separation that u say was caused by the devil. The Church chose which books were inspired, if you don't believe her authority, then go through all the gnostic books and letters that were floating around back then claiming to be of the Apostles and pray about it personally, personally get led by the spirit to decide what books the Bible should have. because there is absolutely no doubt that at the point the Bible was collected, there was definitely a Pope and a body of Bishops, A MAGISTERIUM. that means it was no doubt The Catholic Church, and it was centered in Rome, the city of the martyrs Peter and Paul.

the only reason you have 27 books in your New Testament is because the Catholic Church centered in Rome decided in AD 393 under the guidance of Pope St. Siricius, that you would have those 27 books.

ahhh well, i want us all to be one, but i want us to be one the way God intended when He said, "Thou art the Rock, and upon this Rock i will build my Church" you know, rock as in CEPHA which means massive boulder, using personal pronouns which COULD NOT have refered to his confession of faith, but refering to Peter Who was blessed and able to pronounce truth because of the power of the Heavenly Father

ah well. w/e. good intentions, unity is needed. but it can only be found in the Catholic Church. if you went back in time to AD 700 or somethin crazy like that and said you were Christian, they'd say kewl!, so were you shocked when you heard Pope John IX died? Who do you think is gonna be the next successor to St. Peter?

:rolling: :cyclops:

[cmotherofpirl]

Catholics, of course, believe the bible an inspired book. It was put together by the Church in 397AD.

Ephesians chapter 4

1 I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received,

2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love,

3 striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace:

4 2 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call;

5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Jesus founded one Church, one faith, one baptism. Its not plural. Its not multiple choice. One body and one faith does not include a multiplicity of beliefs, or the 32,000 varieties of people who call themselves christian. There is only one Church.

Everyone who has faith in Jesus ( and outside the Church) is somehow imperfectly joined to it.

Membership has certain requirements. Baptism is the normal entrance requirement into the Kingdom. Communion (without which there is no life) keeps you connected to it, and Penance brings you back to it. But it is one faith and one baptism and one Spirit, singular, not plural Lord of all.

Edited December 22, 2003 by cmotherofpirl

[jasJis]

Hey fellow believers in Christ

...

I know that Catholics as well as non-catholics believe the Bible to be completely true, so I am taking that for granted in saying this. This is a direct quote from 1 Corinthians 12.

"12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by[3] one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many...

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. "

Notice that this verse does not say some people were baptized by the Holy Spirit, i.e. - Catholics, and non-Catholics were not. This verse says we were all baptized by the same Holy Spirit, thus making us all one church. This agrees with what "chasinghim" said.

Second, I completely and totally believe that you are all following Christ whole-heartedly, and I believe we will all be together one day in Heaven. However, I am honestly surprised by what some of you guys/girls have been saying. To first say that I will not have complete happiness until I am part of the Catholic church, that truly amazes me. "I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full..." (John 10:10) Christ has granted me life to the full, he does not say that I need to be part of the Catholic church to have life to the full. I'm sorry guys, I love you all, but to say that i can not have complete happiness until I am part of the catholic church is, idk, i don't know how to say it, saddening.

The other thing, is non-Catholics are not your seperated brethren. We are your brethren now and forever more. Just like the Bible says, we are "one body", that means that we are brethren both now and forever.

I truly hope that this post did not cause any more seperation then there already is, in fact, i hope it brought us closer together. I love all of you, because christ loved me first. I hope you guys will continue to be great lights for Christ, take care

In Christ

Great post, notthereyet.

Sometimes my fellow Catholics surprise me too!

I think you are kinda mis-reading what they say, and they aren't exactly clear.

The Catholic Church teaches all baptized Christians are 'Bretheren in Christ'. You are absolutely correct with that.

There is partial seperation, and full seperation. A Catholic would call a non-Cath Christian "seperated", it means that we aren't fully joined together here on earth. There is one Body of Christ (the Church) that is made of many parts, but some parts are not fully integrated and are connected just enough to live. Catholics have a very broad view of who is connected enough to live, but we are very clear about who is seperated.

Keep in mind, if we truly want to be 'One Body', why are there so many denominations? What are denominations, but a way of identifying what people share in belief. That Catholics are called a seperate denomination, is only a fairly recent thing (last 600 years). That's because people decided they didn't want to share the same beliefs and broke away. The Catholic Church is very clear on what is the fundamental principles of belief, and then points out other things that are voluntary for belief. That's why Catholics tend to bicker over some stuff. We can disagree on these things, but it doesn't mean we have to start another denomination over it.

It all boils down to our understanding of Grace that enables us to benefit from it. Some elements of Grace are given despite our understanding. Other elements of Grace increase with our understanding. This is where the different denoms start coming into play. One can be abundantly happy and know God through other Christian religions. The fullness of that knowledge, the fullness of the happiness, indeed, the fullness of our benefiting from grace is very limited when we limit our opportunity to particiapte in God's methods of bestowing Grace.

[foundsheep]

Satan was the one behind the splitting of Christ's one church. And when i say "one church" i do not mean Catholicism. What i mean is Christ's church.

To my understanding this takes us back to square one. By Saying this you are going against the Gospel Of Matthew and saying that in fact the Gates of Hell prevailed. When in Fact Our Lord said "The Gates of Hell shall not prevail".

[foundsheep]

Second, I completely and totally believe that you are all following Christ whole-heartedly, and I believe we will all be together one day in Heaven. However, I am honestly surprised by what some of you guys/girls have been saying. To first say that I will not have complete happiness until I am part of the Catholic church, that truly amazes me. "I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full..." (John 10:10) Christ has granted me life to the full, he does not say that I need to be part of the Catholic church to have life to the full. I'm sorry guys, I love you all, but to say that i can not have complete happiness until I am part of the catholic church is, idk, i don't know how to say it, saddening.

The other thing, is non-Catholics are not your seperated brethren. We are your brethren now and forever more. Just like the Bible says, we are "one body", that means that we are brethren both now and forever.

I truly hope that this post did not cause any more seperation then there already is, in fact, i hope it brought us closer together. I love all of you, because christ loved me first. I hope you guys will continue to be great lights for Christ, take care

In Christ

We will not according to the Bible and the Book of John you are quoting.

John 6:53-5653

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

54

Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

55

For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

56

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

And if you dont think he meant what he said then read John 6:66

66

As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

The Eucharist wasnt just if you want to. It is what is needed. Yes we are seperated Bretheren. Seperated in the fullness of the Truth.

[foundsheep]

By the way thanks for backing us up jasjis