The Post That You Have All Been Waiting For....

[Anna]

,Dec 12 2003, 12:36 PM] Most haven't. But I've heard of a number of priests of catholic churches saying or doing similar stupid things.

Same with most non-catholic ones.

Funny that, when the catholic church was the only one around for 1000 years. In the more recent 1000 however it hasn't just been catholics.

And this is different to living a non-catholic christian life...how? It's still about taking up your cross daily, catholic or not.

No, we just call them "orders" in the catholic church instead.

What if your final authority is wrong? 

Jas, you seem to totally misunderstand the structure of the Catholic Church...

Priests may say stuipid things. That doesn't mean the Church is stupid! If they are saying something stupid, they're saying as an unintelligent human being, not as the Church.

Please name a few non-Catholic denominations which still adhere to the teaching that artificial contraception and sterilization are sinful, as they ALL did in the 1930's. They've all changed their doctrines, every one of them, to satisfy the appetites of their congregation. Hence, they've also had to approve of remarriage after divorce, another thing not permitted in the Catholic Church.

The reformation was only less than 500 years ago, so I don't understand your remark that in the more recent 1,000 years it hasn't just been Catholics.

Crosses come and go, but being a Catholic has never been a cross to me; it has been my strength that helped me persevere in carrying my cross.

An "order" is not anything like another "denomination." That's the most absurd thing I think I've ever heard from a protestant! I'm amazed that you'd make such an ignorant remark about a faith in which you have soooooo little knowledge or understanding. Firstly, let me say that the Jesuits do not teach against honoring Mary. And secondly, let me explain that all Catholic clergy, regardless of whether they are diocesan or members of a fraternal order, are still under the leadership of the Pope, and still follow to the letter all the teachings of the Church....Some orders simply embrace different lifestyles, such as Franciscans embracing a life of poverty, Benedictines embracing a life of contemplation, Jesuits, study and teaching....Each order uses the special graces given them by God for the building up of the whole Church, not dividing themselves apart from it! (That would be protestantism: one disagrees with the leadership, breaks away, and starts his own belief structure and his own leadership....The exact opposite is found in Catholicism, where all the various diverse gifts are used to build up the whole body, and all embrace the same beliefs and teachings, while living out those teachings in a variety of different ways.)

"He who hears you, hears me; He who rejects you, rejects Me." How can you even think that our final authority could possibly be wrong? Was Christ wrong?

Pax Christi. <><

[Anna]

I have the same confidence in my church leaders, who are guided by the Holy Spirit and are kept accountable by other church leaders.  Only I don't claim that my church is the ONE TRUE CHURCH.  My church does not support abortion or homosexuality.

Your denomination won't claim to be the One True Church, either, for there is only One Church which can make such a claim. It is the one which Jesus Christ founded. I'll venture to guess that your denomination does approve of artificial means of birth control, sterilization surgery on healthy reproductive organs, and remarriage after divorce...yet, calls itself "pro-family."

Where does it say Peter is to pass the baton? Where does it say the authority of the second generation equals that of the first apostles? What is the Biblical justification for the palpacy? You can't point to the subsequent writings of the catholic church as proof for the palpacy.

Where would you like it to say that Peter passes "the baton?" My goodness gracious, the evidence is as plain as the nose on your face. There is a line of successors to Peter with names and dates which shows that each time a pope has died, another was appointed to replace him.

Is it not a Jewish custom, that when a man dies, his brother or eldest son is placed in charge of caring for his widowed wife?

Do you think Jesus Christ would leave His Bride, the Church, unattended?

The New Testament is the beginning of the story of the Early Catholic Church...You can find the names of the first couple of popes. First was Peter, who served from the beginning of the Church to about 67 A.D., succeeded by St. Linus (67-76 A.D.) St. Anacletus 976-88 A.D.) St. Clement (88-97 A.D.) There is an unbroken line of successors.

And why can I not point to the subsequent writings of the catholic church as proof for the papacy?

There were no other Christian denominations for another 1500 years!

Augustine was Catholic, as were all the Early Church Fathers.

That is because the Early Church was Catholic.

And the One, True Church is Catholic.

God doesn't change; neither do His teachings.

Our beliefs and understandings may grow and develop, but they don't change and contradict.

Hope this helps.

Pax Christi. <><

[Guest Bugmotel]

Freaky Chik-

I have just arrived to this site from another christian board. Excellent decision, excellent post, beautiful answer.

[cmotherofpirl]

Welcome to phatmass.

I hope you read all the wonderful responses as well.

[phatcatholic]

all partakers of this thread,

i just finished reading this entire thread........shew! what a rollercoaster of emotions it has been. everyone take a deep breath..................in thru the nose.................................out thru the mouth.........................good.

now, i noticed that freaky chic and others asked for proof from the bible that "peter passed the baton" and that the authority of the second generation is equal to the authority of the first. this proof has yet to be given, so i will provide it below (note: w/ each verse is commentary on that verse, so make sure you look up the verses for yourself)

Ordained Leaders Share in Jesus' Ministry and Authority

Matt. 10:1,40 - Jesus declares to His apostles, "he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me." Jesus freely gives His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - the apostles are given Christ's authority to make visible decisions on earth that will be ratified in heaven. God raises up humanity in Christ by exalting his chosen leaders and endowing them with the authority and grace they need to bring about the conversion of all. Without a central authority in the Church, there would be chaos (as there is in Protestantism).

Luke 9:1; 10:19 - Jesus gives the apostles authority over the natural and the supernatural (diseases, demons, serpents, and scorpions).

Luke 10:16 - Jesus tells His apostles, "he who hears you, hears Me." When we hear the bishops' teaching on the faith, we hear Christ Himself.

Luke 22:29 - the Father gives the kingdom to the Son, and the Son gives the kingdom to the apostles. The gift is transferred from the Father to the Son to the apostles.

Num 16:28 - the Father's authority is transferred to Moses. Moses does not speak on his own. This is a real transfer of authority.

John 5:30 - similarly, Jesus as man does nothing of His own authority, but He acts under the authority of the Father.

John 7:16-17 - Jesus as man states that His authority is not His own, but from God. He will transfer this authority to other men.

John 8:28 - Jesus says He does nothing on His own authority. Similarly, the apostles will do nothing on their own authority. Their authority comes from God.

John 12:49 - Father's authority is transferred to the Son. The Son does not speak on his own. This is a transfer of divine authority.

John 13:20 - Jesus says, "he who receives anyone who I send, receives Me." He who receives the apostles, receives Christ Himself. He who rejects the apostles and their successors, rejects Christ.

John 14:10 - Jesus says the Word He speaks is not His own authority, but from the Father. The gift is from the Father to Jesus to the apostles.

John 16:14-15 - what the Father has, the Son has, and the Son gives it to the apostles. The authority is not lessened or mitigated.

John 17:18; 20:21 - as the Father sends the Son, the Son sends the apostles. The apostles have divinely appointed authority.

Acts 20:28 - apostles are shepherds and guardians appointed by the Holy Spirit / 1 Peter 2:25 - Jesus is the Shepherd and Guardian. The apostles, by the power of the Spirit, share Christ's ministry and authority.

Jer. 23:1-8; Ezek. 34:1-10 - the shepherds must shepherd the sheep, or they will be held accountable by God.

Eph. 2:20 - the Christian faith is built upon the foundation of the apostles. The word "foundation" proves that it does not die with apostles, but carries on through succession.

Eph. 2:20; Rev. 21:9,14 - the words "household," "Bride of the Lamb," the "new Jerusalem" are all metaphors for the Church whose foundation is the apostles.

II. Authority is Transferred by the Sacrament of Ordination

Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demostrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ's own authority.

Acts 1:20 - a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his "bishopric") is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, "I'll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own."

Acts 1:22 - literally, "one must be ordained" to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ's authority.

Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.

Acts 8:17; 19:6 - Luke clearly states that the Holy Spirit is transferred beyond the original apostles by the laying on of hands, which is the sacrament of Holy Orders, or ordination.

Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.

Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.

Acts 14:23 - the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.

Acts 15:22-27 - preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.

2 Cor. 1:21-22 - Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine "office." An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it's not an office.

1 Tim. 3:1 - Paul uses the word "episcopoi" (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul's use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.

1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).

1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.

2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.

2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul's life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.

2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God's intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.

Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 - the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ's work.

1 John 4:6 - whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error.

Exodus 18:25-26 - Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession.

Exodus 40:15 - the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession.

Numbers 3:3 - the sons of Aaron were formally "anointed" priests in "ordination" to minister in the priests' "office."

Numbers 16:40 - shows God's intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority.

Numbers 27:18-20 - shows God's intention that, through the "laying on of hands," one is commissioned and has authority.

Deut. 34:9 - Moses laid hands upon Joshua, and because of this, Joshua was obeyed as successor, full of the spirit of wisdom.

Sirach 45:15 - Moses ordains Aaron and anoints him with oil. There is a transfer of authority through formal ordination.

III. Jesus Wants Us to Obey Apostolic Authority

Acts 5:13 - the people acknowledged the apostles' special authority and did not dare take it upon themselves.

Acts 15:6; 16:4 - the teaching authority is granted to the apostles and their successors. This teaching authority must be traced to the original apostles, or the authority is not sanctioned by Christ.

1 Cor. 5:3-5; 1 Tim. 1:20; Gal 1:8; Matt 18:17 - shows the authority of the elders to excommunicate / anathemize ("deliver to satan").

2 Cor. 2:17 - Paul says the elders are not just random peddlers of God's word. They are actually commissioned by God.

2 Cor. 5:20 - we are "ambassadors" for Christ. This means that the apostles and their successors share an actual participation in Christ's mission, which includes healing, forgiving sins, and confecting the sacraments.

2 Cor. 10:8 - Paul acknowledges his authority over God's people which the Lord gave to build up the Church.

1 Thess. 5:12-13 - Paul charges the members of the Church to respect those who have authority over them.

2 Thess. 3:14 - Paul says if a person does not obey what he has provided in his letter, have nothing to do with him.

1 Tim. 5:17 - Paul charges the members of the Church to honor the appointed elders of the Church.

Titus 2:15 - Paul charges Timothy to exhort and reprove with all authority, which he receive by the laying on of hands.

Heb. 13:7,17 - Paul charges the members of the Church to remember and obey their leaders who have authority over their souls.

1 Peter 2:18 - Peter charges the servants to be submissive to their masters whether kind and gentle or overbearing.

1 Peter 5:5; Jude 8 - Peter and Jude charge the members of the Church to be subject to their elders.

2 Peter 2:10 - Peter warns the faithful about despising authority. He is referring to the apostolic authority granted to them by Christ.

3 John 9 - John points out that Diotrephes does not acknowledge John's apostolic authority and declares that this is evil.

Deut. 17:10-13 - the Lord commands His faithful Israel to obey the priests that He puts in charge, and do to all that they direct and instruct. The Lord warns that those who do not obey His priests shall die.

Num. 16:1-35 - Korah incited a "protestant" rebellion against God's chosen Moses, and Korah and his followers perished.

Sirach 7:29-30 - with all your soul fear the Lord and honor His priests, love your Maker and do not forsake His ministers. God is not threatened by the authority He gives His children! God, as our Loving Father, invites us to participate in His plan of redemption with His Son Jesus. Without authority in the Church, there is error, chaos and confusion.

--------------------------

i hope this helps.

pax christi,

phatcatholic

[CatholicAndFanatical]

nice job Anna and phatcatholic

I still havent heard from freaky about whether she is basing her decision off of our attitudes, or from disagreeing with the Catechism.

The Title of this thread is "The post we've all been waiting for.." ok, well so far its not quiet what I had in mind.

The post we've been waiting for is the post where you say you can prove the Catechism wrong and unScriptural. That was the Challenge brought to you and which you accepted.

So again, did you even open the Catechism and read it?

But the challenge still stands. [jas], bugmotel or any other non-Catholic up for it? Its impossible to do.

Grab the Catechism of the Catholic Church, its the teachings of the Church. Prove they are UnScriptural and wrong.

IronMonk, Jake, Dave and I make the challenge interesting by saying if you can do this, successfully prove the Teachings of the Catholic Church are wrong based off the Catechism (not heresay, if its not in the Catechism the Church doesnt teach it) then we will not only cease to be Catholic, we will tithe your church.

so come on. Time to put up. Freaky still hasnt completed this, even though she claims she came to a decision.

Pax,

CatholicAndFanatical

[jasJis]

I just want to be on record that:

I am not Jas or [jas].

:sadder:

[CatholicAndFanatical]

lol of course not, your a Church Militant

*Stands and salutes*

:duel:

[Freaky Chik]

nice job Anna and phatcatholic

I still havent heard from freaky about whether she is basing her decision off of our attitudes, or from disagreeing with the Catechism.

The Title of this thread is "The post we've all been waiting for.." ok, well so far its not quiet what I had in mind.

The post we've been waiting for is the post where you say you can prove the Catechism wrong and unScriptural. That was the Challenge brought to you and which you accepted.

So again, did you even open the Catechism and read it?

But the challenge still stands. [jas], bugmotel or any other non-Catholic up for it? Its impossible to do.

Grab the Catechism of the Catholic Church, its the teachings of the Church. Prove they are UnScriptural and wrong.

IronMonk, Jake, Dave and I make the challenge interesting by saying if you can do this, successfully prove the Teachings of the Catholic Church are wrong based off the Catechism (not heresay, if its not in the Catechism the Church doesnt teach it) then we will not only cease to be Catholic, we will tithe your church.

so come on. Time to put up. Freaky still hasnt completed this, even though she claims she came to a decision.

Pax,

CatholicAndFanatical

Hi Catholicdude...

been reading everybodies stuff here.. woaahh up and down up and down. lol it's crazy. I didn't wanan get involved though.

anyways, to what you just said

Well then, if the post you're waiting for is for me to prove the Caetiacdjclasjdlc wrong then you aren't ever going to read it. As I said two (or three?) times already, I failed yer challenge. Can you accept that already? Would you like me to jump up and down waving a banner saying that I failed? I mean, come on... do you just want to humiliate me or something? So I donno what you're thinking here mate...

Either way, I ain't continuing the challenge, I humbly come to you saying this. So stop pestering me? It'd be wrong for me to just run away with pride and not tell you that. But here i am, telling you again.... I failed. I didn't do what you challenged me to do (proove it wrong). So now what?

Either way I'm still madly in love with Jesus Christ.

No matter what you think or say.

bye :)

[cmotherofpirl]

WE love Him too.

Some people want to take their faith apart and put it back together again.

Some people just accept it.

Both approaches are equally valid.

:)

[Freaky Chik]

WE love Him too.

Some people want to take their faith apart and put it back together again.

Some people just accept it.

Both approaches are equally valid.

I know you love Him too :)

[CatholicAndFanatical]

I appologize Freaky, I really never read you saying this before. Didnt mean to keep hounding you about it. Thank you for setting the record straight.

But I must stress one thing, and its not directed to you Freaky, its to all Non-Catholics. Unless you pick up and read the Catechism, which is ALL the Teachings of the Catholic Church, you will NOT know what the Church teachs. So it will be redundant for you to come in here stating we are wrong, when in fact you have no clue what the Church Teachs.

My Challenge still stands for anyone else. If you are so sure your denomination is by Christ, put it to the test. Christ said He will be with us till the end of Times. Christ Church will be able to withstand any crusade, schism or reformation. So my Challenge again, prove that the Catholic Church isnt the Church founded by Christ. Prove the Catechism wrong. If you are so set in your ways, test it. If it succeeds, then your on the right path. If not, its better to find out now while your alive than to be in front of Christ and Him say that you denied Him because you denied His Church.

God Bless,

CatholicAndFanatical

[Anna]

I'm madly in love with Jesus Christ.

I'm madly in love with Him when I receive His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity within me in a most intimate spiritual union.

I'm in love with the Church He founded upon Peter.

I'm in love with the Book (yeah, the Bible) that records so much of the Life of Christ and of the Early Church.

You're young, freaky chick. Jesus has much more to give you, as time goes on. I hope and pray you'll always be open to it.

But it may mean that you will need to read a bit also.

Infatuation is just a feeling.

Love involves understanding. In this case, understanding Who it is we love, and what He has done for us, What He left to us, and what He wants us to do about it.

Pax Christi. <><

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Aman Anna

why you so cool?

:heymon:

[ChronoMasta]

I'm madly in love with Jesus Christ.

I'm madly in love with Him when I receive His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity within me in a most intimate spiritual union.

I'm in love with the Church He founded upon Peter.

I'm in love with the Book (yeah, the Bible) that records so much of the Life of Christ and of the Early Church.

You're young, freaky chick. Jesus has much more to give you, as time goes on. I hope and pray you'll always be open to it.

But it may mean that you will need to read a bit also.

Infatuation is just a feeling.

Love involves understanding. In this case, understanding Who it is we love, and what He has done for us, What He left to us, and what He wants us to do about it.

Pax Christi. <><

amen girl! :D