The Post That You Have All Been Waiting For....

[[jas]]

guided by the Holy Spirit

How do you know it's the Holy Spirit and not being guided by feelings?

[BLAZEr]

lol, that's the first time I've ever heard anyone accuse the Church of being guided by feelings! With our tradition of philosophical and analytical theology I'm shocked to hear such a thing.

I don't know, jas, does the Holy Spirit talk to people through feelings? Or does the Holy Spirit open the intellect and move the will?

[[jas]]

He does both.

All I'm saying is the exact same things you guys say to us.

Edited December 12, 2003 by [jas]

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[jas] Pax,

There are alot of ways you can tell the Holy Spirit is guiding the Church. For one, after 2000 years, our Teachings are still the same and never cease. How many protestant churchs have decided that birth control and abortion is ok? How many think actively homosexual unions are ok? You wont find this in the Catholic Church, even with society pressuring Her to give in and 'Get with the times' she will never sway.

[jas] if you want Authenticity, its the Catholic Church, you want Historical facts about Church History, you'll only see the Catholic Church writing it.

And the Catholic Church is far from being about 'feelings'. This cross I pick up every morning as a Catholic is sometimes hard, its definitly the hardest out of all the Christian faiths to live. Which is probably why so many reject Her, they are not willing to live it daily.

QUOTE 

Finally if e have no Body in authority then each of us has our own interpretation, right now there are 22,000 protestant denominations they can't all be right about their interpretatinon so how do you know that yours is correct?

And there's never any differing opinion in the catholic church?

You are right, there are alot of different opinions in the Catholic Church, but that is not the same thing as having different denominations being created based off of different interpretations.

If Blazer and I disagreed on something, like Church Teachings or a interpretation on Scripture. We could argue until were blue in the face (course Id win ) So who could settle this arguement? Who could we run to as a FINAL AUTHORITY to settle this? Christs Church, the Catholic Church, who has the Keys to Heaven. Remember Christ said "And if he doesnt listen to even the CHURCH, cast him out..."

Hope this makes sense.

God Bless,

Steve

[[jas]]

How many protestant churchs have decided that birth control and abortion is ok? How many think actively homosexual unions are ok?

Most haven't. But I've heard of a number of priests of catholic churches saying or doing similar stupid things.

You wont find this in the Catholic Church, even with society pressuring Her to give in and 'Get with the times' she will never sway.

Same with most non-catholic ones.

[jas] if you want Authenticity, its the Catholic Church, you want Historical facts about Church History, you'll only see the Catholic Church writing it.

Funny that, when the catholic church was the only one around for 1000 years. In the more recent 1000 however it hasn't just been catholics.

And the Catholic Church is far from being about 'feelings'. This cross I pick up every morning as a Catholic is sometimes hard, its definitly the hardest out of all the Christian faiths to live. Which is probably why so many reject Her, they are not willing to live it daily.

And this is different to living a non-catholic christian life...how? It's still about taking up your cross daily, catholic or not.

You are right, there are alot of different opinions in the Catholic Church, but that is not the same thing as having different denominations being created based off of different interpretations.

No, we just call them "orders" in the catholic church instead.

If Blazer and I disagreed on something, like Church Teachings or a interpretation on Scripture. We could argue until were blue in the face (course Id win   )  So who could settle this arguement? Who could we run to as a FINAL AUTHORITY to settle this?

What if your final authority is wrong? ;)

[bobbymac]

Just to be clear, that's what is amazing about being the One True Church.  We can dispute and argue and disagree without worrying that we are going to go off the deep end in error, because in the end we have a guide who keeps us within the lines, who generously points out our errors, and who calls us to the ONE truth.

I have the same confidence in my church leaders, who are guided by the Holy Spirit and are kept accountable by other church leaders. Only I don't claim that my church is the ONE TRUE CHURCH. My church does not support abortion or homosexuality.

2. He founded a Church. Jesus Himself instituted His Church, and established the order of authority within it. He personally appointed the first pope, St. Peter, and He promised the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit over His Church until the end of time. His Church was a visible Church with a visible leader or "head," if you will.

Man did not estabish the papacy, Christ did. "He who hears you, hears Me; He who rejects you, rejects Me." "I give you the keys to the kingdom. What you declare bound on earth will be bound in heaven, what you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Have you not read these or similar words in your Bible? Those to whom He spoke these words understood full well their meanings. Today, men will attempt to find other interpretations, but Scripture warns against twisting its words.

Where does it say Peter is to pass the baton? Where does it say the authority of the second generation equals that of the first apostles? What is the Biblical justification for the palpacy? You can't point to the subsequent writings of the catholic church as proof for the palpacy.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

What if your final authority is wrong? 

thats impossible, when it comes to Church Teachings the Church is infallible.

This is where the Holy Spirit guides and protects the Church. Keeping Her free from error.

[[jas]]

when it comes to Church Teachings the Church is infallible.

Says who?

[[jas]]

Where does it say Peter is to pass the baton? Where does it say the authority of the second generation equals that of the first apostles? What is the Biblical justification for the palpacy? You can't point to the subsequent writings of the catholic church as proof for the palpacy.

bump

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Absolutly we can see writings to support Papacy. This is just a reference, but look at the life of St. Ignatius:

St. Ignatius was the third bishop of Antioch, succeeding St. Evodius, who was the immediate successor of St. Peter.  St. Ignatius is given the title of Apostolic Father of the Church since he was a disciple of the Apostle John.  Ignatius was bishop of Antioch during the reign of the Roman emperor Trajen (98-117), an unyielding persecutor of the Christian Church.  Behind the Apostles, St. Ignatius is perhaps the most famous name associated with the early Church.  However, little is known about his life or his career as bishop.  What we do know of him stems from his writings, in particular the seven epistles Ignatius wrote on his way to his death.  At around the year 110 A.D., Trajen sentenced Ignatius to death by exposure to the wild beasts in the arena.  During his journey from Antioch to Rome for his martyrdom, Ignatius wrote seven letters addressed to the Christians in the communities of Ephesus, Magnesia, Tralles, Rome, Philadelphia, and Smyrna, all of  which were along the journey's path.  These seven letters tell little of his life, but do reveal his love of the Church, his desire for Church unity, his hatred of schism and heresy, and his desire for martyrdom for the sake of Christ.

There are tons of writings that one can read about Early Church Fathers and the teachings. St. Ignatius was one of the first to mention the Catholic Church and also to defend the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

JAS: Ok, so you admit that in the beginning 1000 years there was Nothing but Catholic, so you still claim that those that came after the 1000 are somehow in Union with Christ? He didnt start Churchs (plural) He only built ONE Church upon Peter.

How do we know that the Succession was suppose to go on? Because in Acts of the Apostles you clearly see Apostolic Succession when they pray and chose lots for the Successor of Judas. In that Chapter is clearly says "May another take his office". It is suppose to be passed down.

And this is different to living a non-catholic christian life...how? It's still about taking up your cross daily, catholic or not.

Ok, I may of went off wrong here, but coming from a Pentecostal background, they really didnt feel the need to confess their sins, admit their wrongs, go to church, be celebate if your single. These are my experiences. Since becoming Catholic 4 years ago, I learned the hard way about abstaining until marriage, attending Mass EVERY Sunday, going to confession and REALLY, TRUELY knowing my sins and how much they affect Jesus (although one human can never really now how much).

No, we just call them "orders" in the catholic church instead.

Orders in the Church have nothing to do with a denominations, for example the Fransican Orders and the Order of the Poor Clares, are different Orders, but they are in perfect Union with the Church. They obey the Authority of the Bishop of Rome and obey all the Teachings of the Catholic Church.

Put it this way, there are some catholics (small c) that claim to be Catholic but are not. Take the "Catholics for Free Choice" stuff..They are NOT in Union with Rome, they are not Catholic. If you dont agree with the Church and Her Teachings your not Catholic plain and simple.

God Bless,

CatholicAndFanatical

[bobbymac]

Absolutly we can see writings to support Papacy. This is just a reference, but look at the life of St. Ignatius:

There are tons of writings that one can read about Early Church Fathers and the teachings. St. Ignatius was one of the first to mention the Catholic Church and also to defend the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

I asked for proof from the Bible, not subsequent writings which simply document what happened, where does it say that God commanded that there be a palpacy? It isn't even close to a proof.

[[jas]]

Ok, I may of went off wrong here, but coming from a Pentecostal background, they really didnt feel the need to confess their sins, admit their wrongs, go to church, be celebate if your single. These are my experiences. Since becoming Catholic 4 years ago, I learned the hard way about abstaining until marriage, attending Mass EVERY Sunday, going to confession and REALLY, TRUELY knowing my sins and how much they affect Jesus (although one human can never really now how much).

I don't think any church will be saying that. Maybe preaching grace that you can still be forgiven if you repent, but not that sin is okay.

Orders in the Church have nothing to do with a denominations, for example the Fransican Orders and the Order of the Poor Clares, are different Orders, but they are in perfect Union with the Church. They obey the Authority of the Bishop of Rome and obey all the Teachings of the Catholic Church.

What about (from what I've heard) Marians who say we have to honour Mary and Jesuits who say to have nothing to do with it?

Put it this way, there are some catholics (small c) that claim to be Catholic but are not. Take the "Catholics for Free Choice" stuff..They are NOT in Union with Rome, they are not Catholic. If you dont agree with the Church and Her Teachings your not Catholic plain and simple.

But even though they may be wrong in some things they can still be saved.

[Paladin D]

I asked for proof from the Bible, not subsequent writings which simply document what happened, where does it say that God commanded that there be a palpacy?  It isn't even close to a proof.

And we've been asking for proof on where in Scripture, does it state that the Bible is our sole authority of our faith? Where in it does it state, that everything is in the Bible?

Once you answer those two questions, then we'll be able to answer yours.

[Lil Red]

,Dec 11 2003, 11:04 PM] What bible do I use? Usually the NIV or NLT, although not exclusively.

(Yeah, I know, blah blah blah books ripped out by the man we all love to hate Martin Luther, when in reality he didn't rip books out but they weren't there in the first place in the sources he translated from, which were arguably more historically accurate than the ones that the deuterocanocal books are in (oooh I can use big words) )

from About the NIV

DOES "THE NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION" DELETE WHOLE VERSES?

WHOLE Bible verses deleted in the NIV

The following WHOLE verses have been removed in the NIV--many were moved from the text to a footnote...over 40 IN ALL!!! It is interesting to note that most of these verses were also eliminated by the translators of the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible "New World Translation".

Matthew 12:47 -- removed in the footnotes

Matthew 17:21 -- COMPLETELY removed. What are you NIV readers missing?

"Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting."

Matthew 18:11 -- COMPLETELY removed. What are you NIV readers missing?

"For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost."

Matthew 21:44 -- removed in the footnotes

Matthew 23:14 -- COMPLETELY removed. What are you NIV readers missing?

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation."

Mark 7:16 -- COMPLETELY removed. What are you NIV readers missing?

"If any man have ears to hear, let him hear."

Mark 9:44 -- COMPLETELY removed. What are you NIV readers missing?

"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Mark 9:46 -- COMPLETELY removed. What are you NIV readers missing?

"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Mark 11:26 -- COMPLETELY removed. What are you NIV readers missing?

"But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."

Mark 15:28 -- COMPLETELY removed. What are you NIV readers missing?

"And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors."

Mark 16:9-20 (all 12 verses) -- There is a line separating the last 12 verses of Mark from the main text. Right under the line it says: [The two most reliable early manuscripts do not have Mark 16:9-20] (NIV, 1978 ed.).

Luke 17:36 -- COMPLETELY removed. What are you NIV readers missing?

"Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

Luke 22:44 -- removed in the footnotes

Luke 22:43 -- removed in the footnotes

For these two verses, the website (quoted at the bottom) I looked these verses up said,

Luke 23:17 -- COMPLETELY removed. What are you NIV readers missing?

"(For of necessity he must release one unto them at the feast.)"

John 5:4 -- COMPLETELY removed. What are you NIV readers missing?

"For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had."

John 7:53-8:11 -- removed in the footnotes

(on the website I used to make sure about these verses, this is what they say about these verses:

Acts 8:37 -- COMPLETELY removed. What are you NIV readers missing?

"And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

Acts 15:34 -- COMPLETELY removed. What are you NIV readers missing?

"Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still."

Acts 24:7 -- COMPLETELY removed. What are you NIV readers missing?

"But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands,"

Acts 28:29 -- COMPLETELY removed. What are you NIV readers missing?

"And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves."

Romans 16:24 -- COMPLETELY removed. What are you NIV readers missing?

"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."

I John 5:7 -- Vitally important phrase COMPLETELY removed. In the NIV it says,

"For there are three that testify:"

Compare the NIV reading with the following Jehovah's Witness reading--

"For there are three witness bearers,"

What are you NIV readers missing? What does the real Bible say?

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

This is one of the GREATEST verses testifying of the trinity. That is why the Jehovah's Witnesses leave it out. They do not believe in the trinity and they do not believe that Jesus is God. Why does the NIV leave it out...? Whole books have been written on the manuscript evidence that supports inclusion of this verse in the Bible.

BTW, I looked up these verses using the NIV on International Bible Society because this particular article was using the 1978 version of the NIV. So I wanted to double check. I also downloaded the Today's New International Version to double check.

[BLAZEr]

THIS IS SO ANNOYING!!! I drives me nuts to hear "Where's your proof from the Scripture?" THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WROTE, COLLECTED, and DECIDED WHICH WRITINGS WERE INSPIRED. The Scriptures are a gift from God through the CHURCH!!! Do you think the scriptures just fell out of the sky?

If you all just stopped for five seconds, climbed out of your arrogance, and asked the question "How did we get these scriptures I love to so much and that teach me about Christ so clearly?" You would cease to be Protestant.