salvation

[Myles Domini]

Jessussaves I just want to know did you read the [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html"]"JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION" by the World Lutheran Federation and the Catholic Church[/url]? If not, please click the linked text and do so.

In Christian charity. Do me this one favour, yes?

INXC
Myles

[Brother Adam]

Alright, don't get your knickers all in a twist.

I've 'been there, done that' so perhaps I can be of some help in this process of enlightenment.

[You.] - That's right, us. Us encompasses the whole Catholic Church. Unlike Protestants, who each claim the See of Peter for themselves as the final interpreters of the Sacred Scriptures we look to the Church, the "Pillar and Foundation of Truth" (1 Tim 3:15) for the correct interpretation through the Tradition of the Apostles (2 thess 2:15, 2 Thess 3:6). It is upon the rock of Peter that the Church of Jesus Christ is built (Mt 16:18), not on the rock of 'jesussaves'. You have no authority, as the authority to interpret the Infallible Word of God has not been given to you, but to the Church, with a visible head, founded in 33 AD by Jesus Christ (Jn 21:17, Mt 28:18-20, Lk 10:16, Mt 18:18).

[ You beleive faith and works achieved through unmerited grace based on Jesus' sacrafice]

We believe in a covenantal relationship with Jesus Christ. You on the other hand believe in a contractual relationship with Christ through a 'prayer'. That prayer is your own doing, do not forget that. God made man good (Genesis 1-2), not evil. Through the fall man's soul is stained with original sin and man has a sin nature. God makes provisions through covenants (Moses, Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, Jesus). Each covenant has a sign. There are three types of covenants

Kinship - - Superior and inferior takes oath.
Vassal - - Inferior takes the oath.
Grant - - Superior takes the oath.

The New Covenant, abolishing the final form of the Mosaic Law (Deuteronomy 30:1-6), in the blood of Christ (John 6:52-55, 1 Corin 11) is a covenant in which Christ intercedes for us. He becomes the only mediator of the new covenant. The covenant sign is baptism instead of circumcision and in order to enter into the New Covenant, one must be washed of their sins and 'put on Christ', because it is "Christ in us". Unlike the heretical doctrine of Luther and the Fundamentalists that teaches man is by nature evil and that grace 'covers us like snow' so God does not see the 'evil that we are' but instead 'sees grace', God made man fundamentally good and because he did so calls us to the 'bath of renewal' where our sins aren't simply 'covered' by grace, but washed clean (Titus 3:5, John 3:5,22, Acts 2:37-38, Acts 22:16, 1 Cor 6:11, Rom 6:4, 1 Peter 3:21, Heb 10:22).

Because the nature of Salvation is not a contract, but a covenant, and because through a covenant God's family tree and ours is changed forever as we become adopted sons of God, 'prayer' is not sufficent to 'save someone'. Prayer is never used as a covenant sign. Prayer is a way of communicating with God. Simply crying 'Oh God' will not save you. Even the demons believe Jesus Christ is God and yet tremble.

Fundamentalists like yourself need to completely reorient your view of the Sacred Scriptures because you are completely missing the forest for the trees. The covenantal nature of our salvation is not simply 'faith' or 'faith and works'. It goes far beyond such simplistic language. We are not simply 'saved' as it were by 'contract' with God. If you want to ask 'have I been saved', you have to say:

"I have been Saved" (romans 8:24, Eph 2:5,8, 2 Tim 1:9, Titus 3:5)
"I am being Saved" (Phil 2:12, 1 Peter 1:9)
"I will be saved" (Mat 10:22, Mt 24:13, Mt 8:35)

Being saved is more than "accepting Christ". Being saved is a liberation from sin and death. We are ultimately liberated from the effects of original sin through the washing of rebirth, but we are left with the temporary effects of sin, that is, we have an inclination to sin. Ultimately there is no sin in heaven. We must be fully cleansed of all unrighteousness in order to be before the face of God. This process of becoming holy, santification happens throughout our life with final purification for believers before we enter heaven, because nothing unclean can enter into heaven.

[perhaps even an extra heaping of grace at the end, is sufficient.]

Grace is not 'heaped'. We are made holy through our prayers, devotions, and the sacraments because they are works of God in us. they orient us towards God and away from sin and evil. Even after initial salvation we continue to battle sin (even fundamentalists acknolwedge this) and have the free will to continue to turn to God, or away from God. Free will does not end with initial salvation.

[But faith in your own works is what gets you to hell, even be they based on the sublte, yet damnable heresy of unmerited grace based on Jesus' sacrafice.]

'Faith in our own works' is a misnomer and a complete misunderstanding of covenental theology becuase you are stuck on thinking salvation is a contract between you and Jesus. Salvation however is relational, filial, not contractual. Our faith is placed in Christ and any works a believer does is through the grace of God. Works themselve do not justify in the sense you want to believe that we believe. Works justify only in the sense that they orient us to God towards the final goal of our faith - the salvation of our souls as we die and enter into heaven (Matt 10:22, 24:13, James 2:24). Remember, we have been saved, yet we are still working out our salvation. This is why a Catholic fully accepts the scriptures - we do indeed believe that our belief saves. Dwell on that one for a while : Belief itself is not empty, but is obedient. "belief" does not simply signify 'prayer' but everything that Jesus Christ calls us to (Romans 1:5). We are called to pick up our crosses and follow Him. Through Christ, suffering is made redemptive becuase suffering is no longer in vien (lest we make the suffering of Christ on the cross empty).

[ (a distortion) The sad part of the gosple of Rome is that you think the dung must be removed before being declared legally clean, based on a distortion of the sacrafice of Jesus, and enter into heaven. This is not the truth.]

This again is the basic misunderstanding you have about the scriptures. There is nothing sad about it, and there is nothing 'legal' about it. Salvation is a covenant, not a contract! And the dung is made clean apart from any works of man through baptism - the express work of the Holy Spirit!

[Us.] - Those that are Protestants that may agree with you. But many Protestant, in fact most, scholars disagree with your position. That is the anarchy of Protestantism. John 16:13 has been ignored and the Church is no longer one, but a fraction of 36,000 different mini-magisteriums.

[ Faith in the completely unmerited atonement based on faith alone is what gets you heaven.]

You have just contradicted the bible. James 2:24. Your faith is based on a lie and is expressely anti-biblical.

[The works flow out of appreciation of your salvation, but have no bearing on it. ]

Anti-biblical. James 2:26, Galatians 5:6, 1 Cor 13:2, John 14:15, Matt 19:16-17

Even St. Paul expressely stated that his own sufferings were united with Christ's sufferings on the cross.

[We think the dung can stay, and you can still be declared legally clean, due to the sacrafice of Jesus, and enter into heaven.]

Anti-Biblical. The wages of sin is death Romans 3:23. The 'dung' cannot stay and our salvation is not 'legal', it is covenantal.

[ We still remove the dung when living a christian life. Yet, when we accept the
faith, we are perfect in God's eyes!]

Anti-biblical. Baptism removes the dung as stated before. It is God taking care of the sin problem through Calvary. When we accept faith we are 'not perfect in God's eyes' the Bible alludes to nothing of the sort.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 30 2005, 10:39 AM']I see no point in continuing. We agree that our stances are different. What you are saying right now is verifying our differences as I told them. I have not been shown how I am misinterpreting the Catholic Church, so I assume the case is closed unless I am shown otherwise.
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if you don't want to argue with our points, then why did you post this thread in the debate table in the first place? I think practically everyone in this thread (except maybe dairy) disagrees with the picture you've painted of the Catholic Church and I know I myself have explained why. It seems like you just don't have the chutzpah to debate, and I'm waiting for you to reply to my posts.

[jesussaves]

I do not want to argue the points that you are.

Two issues going on here:
defining the official stances
debating who is right

Brother Adam exemplifies what is occuing overall in this thread.There are a few who want to say we are not different, I'll ignore that minority. He is not showing me how I have misinterpreted the Catholic Church. If that were the case, I'd be stating why it is I think what I do and listening to you for correction. But you are not correcting me, you are stating why it is you think your position is right. I did not come here to debate this; I know the arguments. I came to enlighten and be enlightened on your gospel and mine, in case no one knew it; that has been done, and now we're moving into a territory I do not wish to debate. So, I am not running from the argument that has been started. I am running from the argument you want to start, but not because I do not think I am right, but because nothing will be accomplished. If you wish to show me how I have errored in my understanding of the Catholic Church, by all means.

[N/A Gone]

good call on the Joint letter of Justification.

JesusSaves, as a former protestant theologian(baptist-TWT background) and now as a catholic working and being educated in preperation for work in ecumenism I can honestly and ecucatedly tell you that faith vs faith/works is not a debate anymore between Catholic and major protestant groups. Rather, the root of the debate is simply a matter of eccesiology. Please, read the Joint Justification. Also, what form of protestant are you? If you are a calvinist or reformed type than the approach both of our parties are taking here is wrong. If you are from a lutheran or even a free church than check out "is the reformation over" by Mark Noll, he is a leading protestant historian and discusses many of the common "differences" between catholic doctrine and protestant debate.

But, as it is pointed out in a famous argument. As a catholic we have 1 truth, that in which the magistirum leads instructs, interprets and determines. For us that is the truth we are bound by.

As a protestant you must use the scripture as your only authority, this has 2 important factors you are not acting on
1.) doctrines that you have recieved from someone else, not from a blind reading of scripture should be false to you. Luther would not be applicable for you under true sola scripture.
2.) If we intrepret scripture to be something different than you, and we can argue it from scripture than you have no right, even by your own belief, to chalenge us. Because we are using scripture as well. For you to challenge our interpretation is no longer an action of scripture as the authority, but rather you are implicating yourself as an authority, a psuedo magistrium of sorts.

[N/A Gone]

Works

James 2:24

Quote:
"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."


In addition to their belief in the Bible alone ("sola Scriptura"), most Protestants believe that all one has to do is accept Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior in order to be justified by God (justification is the process by which man, moved by grace, turns toward God and away from sin, and accepts God’s forgiveness and righteousness). Thus, most Protestants believe that one is justified and saved by His faith in Christ alone (called "sola Fide" or Faith alone). But if this is true, then why does James say that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone?

James says this because we are justified, and ultimately saved, through both our faith and works, and not just faith alone. In fact, the only place in the Bible where the phrase "faith alone" appears is in James 2:24 where it says we are justified by works and NOT by faith alone. So the Bible never teaches anywhere that we are justified, saved, or anything else, by faith alone. While on its face the Catholic position seems obvious, the theology of faith and works in the matter of salvation is actually quite complicated, and has been one of the main sources of division between Catholicism and Protestantism. Hence, a couple of points should be made to address the controversy and clarify Catholic teaching.

First, Catholics ultimately believe that we are saved, not by faith or works, but by Jesus Christ and Him alone. Jesus Christ's death and Resurrection is the sole source of our justification (being in a right relationship with God) and salvation (sharing in God's divine life). But as a result of Christ's death and resurrection, we are now able to receive God's grace. Grace is God's own divine life which He infuses into our souls. It is what Adam initially lost for us, and Christ won back for us. This grace initially causes us to seek God and to believe in Him (the "faith" part). Non-Catholics generally stop here.

But God desires us to respond to His grace by putting our faith into action (the "works" part). This is why Jesus always taught about our salvation in the context of what we actually did during our earthly lives, and not how much faith we had ("whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did to Me." Matthew 25:40,45). When Jesus teaches about His second coming where He will separate the sheep from the goats, He bases salvation and damnation upon what we actually did ("works"), whether righteous or evil. Matthew 25:31-46. In James 2:14-26, James is similarly instructing us to put our faith into action by performing good works, and not just giving an intellectual assent of faith. James says such "faith apart from works is dead." James 2:17,26.

So we must do more than accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. Even the demons believe Jesus is Savior, and yet "they tremble." James 2:19. We must also do good works. Faith is the beginning of a process that leads us toward justification, but faith alone never obtains the grace of justification. Faith and works acting together achieve our justification. Saint Paul says it best when he writes that we need "faith working in love." Galatians 5:6. We are not justified and saved by faith alone.

Secondly, it is important to distinguish between the "works" James taught about in James 2:24 and the "works of the law" Saint Paul taught about in Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16,21; 3:2,5,10; and Eph. 2:8-9. Protestants generally confuse James' "good works" from Paul's "works of the law" when they attempt to prove that "works" are irrelevant to justification and salvation. The "works of the law" Paul taught about in Ephesians 2:8-9 and elsewhere referred to the Mosaic law and their legal system that made God obligated to reward them for their works. They would thus “boast” about their works by attributing their works to themselves. Cf. Rom. 4:2; Eph. 2:9. Saint Paul taught that, with the coming of Christ, the Mosaic (moral, legal, and ceremonial) law which made God a debtor to us no longer justified a person. Instead, Paul taught that we are now justified and saved by grace (not legal obligation) through faith (not works of law). Eph. 2:5,8. Hence, we no longer “boast” by attributing our works to ourselves. We attribute them to God who gives everything to us freely by His grace.

Therefore, we are no longer required to fulfill the “works of law,” but to fulfill the “law of Christ” Gal. 6:2. This is why Paul writes that the “doers of the law (of Christ)” will be justified. Rom. 2:13. Of course, the “works of the law” Paul wrote about in Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16,21; 3:2,5,10 and Eph. 2:8-9 have nothing to do with the “good works” James is teaching in James 2:24 or the “law” Paul is teaching about in Rom. 2:13 (because they are part of the same Word of God which can never contradict itself).

In summary, based on the Scriptures, the Church has taught for 2,000 years that we are justified and saved by the grace and mercy of Christ through both faith and works, and not faith alone. We are no longer in a legal system of debt where God owes us (creditor/debtor). We are now in a system of grace where God rewards our works when done with faith in Christ (Father/child). This also means that we must continue to exercise our faith and works to the end of our lives in order to be saved. This is why Jesus told us to "endure to the end" to be saved. Matthew 10:22; 24:13; Mark 13:13. This is also why Saint Paul warned us that we could even lose our salvation if we did not persevere. cf. Romans 11:20-23; 1 Corinthians 9:27. This Catholic belief contradicts the novel Protestant notion of "once saved, always saved."

Edited November 30, 2005 by Revprodeji

[rkwright]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 30 2005, 07:21 PM']I do not want to argue the points that you are.

Two issues going on here:
defining the official stances
debating who is right

[/quote]

[quote] But you are not correcting me, you are stating why it is you think your position is right. I did not come here to debate this; I know the arguments.[/quote]

[quote]I am sorry to shake your website with the truth, but the Roman Church's teachings are lies.[/quote]

Why would you want to tell us the RC teachings are lies yet you won't debate the teachings?

Myself, and maybe a few others here would assume you would want to debate the merits of your first claim, that our teachings are lies... You've heard from many many people on how the teaching works, but you're also saying you want debate it. Throwing out accusations without willingness to back them seems kinda weak.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 30 2005, 06:21 PM']I do not want to argue the points that you are.

Two issues going on here:
defining the official stances
debating who is right

Brother Adam exemplifies what is occuing overall in this thread.There are a few who want to say we are not different, I'll ignore that minority.  He is not showing me how I have misinterpreted the Catholic Church. If that were the case, I'd be stating why it is I think what I do and listening to you for correction. But you are not correcting me, you are stating why it is you think your position is right. I did not come here to debate this; I know the arguments. I came to enlighten and be enlightened on your gospel and mine, in case no one knew it; that has been done, and now we're moving into a territory I do not wish to debate. So, I am not running from the argument that has been started. I am running from the argument you want to start, but not because I do not think I am right, but because nothing will be accomplished. If you wish to show me how I have errored in my understanding of the Catholic Church, by all means.
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you are being obtuse without engaging the arguments presented to you.
You will not come to an understanding unless you actually GO through that argument that you claim to want to avoid.

[jesussaves]

See, people here are still insisting we do not disagree after all as your insistence on the joint declaration indicates. We do and trying to avoid it is a travesty to yourself. The declaration was simply a way of defining what exactly was agreed on and to clarify misconceptions of each other. It doesn't address what we disagree on. Learn about these differences before we do anything else. What I mentioned above is true about the positions. This way you may make your choice to reject or accept which gospel. (fake or genuine)

Others are arguing their authority and why they think the passages make sense the way they understand. To this, I am not going to debate the yes-huh's nuh-uhs of the latter. But, for the former, I am certain and will debate these authority issues in another thread, if you feel compelled to start a thread, that your authority is not what you perceive it to be and that I have just as much rational if not more to claim the authority the way I do.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 30 2005, 07:54 PM']See, people here are still insisting we do not disagree after all as your insistence on the joint declaration indicates. We do and trying to avoid it is a travesty to yourself. The declaration was simply a way of defining what exactly was agreed on and to clarify misconceptions of each other. It doesn't address what we disagree on.  Learn about these differences before we do anything else. What I mentioned above is true about the positions. This way you may make your choice to reject or accept which gospel. (fake or genuine)

Others are arguing their authority and why they think the passages make sense the way they understand. To this, I am not going to debate the yes-huh's nuh-uhs of the latter. But, for the former, I am certain and will debate these authority issues in another thread, if you feel compelled to start a thread, that your authority is not what you perceive it to be and that I have just as much rational if not more to claim the authority the way I do.
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The notion of sola fide that you hold is a heresy. As pointed out, the Lutheran Church has begun on the path reconciliation with the Catholic Church in terms of Salvation by the Joint Declaration, thus they are trying to achieve understanding and removing themselves for the sola fide heresy that most other protestants hold.

[Paphnutius]

Here you go JS, since you did not respond to my question about the definition of justification.

Do you believe that you have to be sanctified to be admitted to heaven?

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 30 2005, 07:54 PM']Others are arguing their authority and why they think the passages make sense the way they understand.
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[/quote]
see, I never said I had any real authority. I believe in the authority of Sacred Scripture and the authentic teachings of the Roman Catholic Magesterium.

that's our authority. what's yours?

if you're not going to engage with what we've just said to you, and you want the debate to be over, so be it.

but personally I think that's a bit cowardly.

[jesussaves]

[quote]with the Catholic Church in terms of Salvation by the Joint Declaration, thus they are trying to achieve understanding and removing themselves for the sola fide heresy that most other protestants hold. [/quote]

You may say they are removing themselves, but they have yet to remove themselves. Not that it would matter if the Luthern Church chose to reject the true gosple. So, just to reiterate, the protestant take is different than the Catholic. The takes have been described accurately by me, and no one has shown how not. Beyond the dialouge and fellowship, as far as changing anything, the declaration did nothing. Whatever the case, you say you're right; I say I am right.

[quote]Do you believe that you have to be sanctified to be admitted to heaven?[/quote]
No. But that does not mean God cannot declare you legally clean, for His love can do anything. Also, if one has a genuine faith, one would increase in sanctification out of love of God. Maybe you would say it happends either way then, but that does not mean we are the same. We have the true faith that saves; total surrender to the unmerited grace through faith only. But, why do you ask?


What do you want me to debate with you photo? I only am not debating in circles why I insist on my interpretation and you on your's of the Catholic Church. We have covered this, unless I am missing something. I will engage with the authority issue and am open to clarification on the true Catholic stance.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 30 2005, 10:28 PM']No. But that does not mean God cannot declare you legally clean, for His love can do anything.  [/quote]
Could you please give me a biblical quote that states that all that needs to happen is for us to be called clean and no santicification or cleansing is needed.

[quote]Also, if one has a genuine faith, one would increase in sanctification out of love of God.[/quote]Let me check to see if I understand you correctly: Genuine faith will always be accompanied by works?

Also what is your take on the Our Father? In particular the "forgive us our sins as we forgive others."

[N/A Gone]

jesus saves..

why dont u reply to my post..about the nature of sola scripture and its exercise? Also, whats your denom background because as a lutheran you shouldnt have debate here.

btw....read the Mark Noll book..