salvation

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='rkwright' date='Nov 29 2005, 08:27 PM']JesusSaves

Welcome!

I am a bit new here also, actually most of the Catholics don't really know me here either but thats ok... I'll throw in my 2 cents.

I really urge you to re-read some of the posts above, and then we can really discuss the differences.  The answers are there.

I'll repeat what others have said...
The difference is in our definition of Justification.  To put in your terms (and this is probably and over simplification of Catholic teaching) Justification for us is both what you call Justification and Santification all in one. 

I think for clarity its important you understand the catholic teaching, otherwise we can't get anywhere.  It's no good to tell us were wrong if you don't know what we're wrong about.  I'll try my best, but I am far from an authoritative figure on  Catholic teaching.  Catholic teaching goes something like this...

Man is saved by the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.  Any person who confesses this with his mouth and believes this in his heart is saved, however our salvation is dependent on what we do after this and how we live our life. We were saved at our time of acceptance of Jesus Christ, we are being saved now through our perseverance in Jesus Christ, and we hope that we will be judged worthy of salvation at the time of our death.

What we refer to in works are the ongoing efforts of salvation.  Look to 1 Cor 9:24-27, where Paul speaks of salvation like running a race.  It is not enough to just start the race (to just say Jesus is your savior), one must actually finish the race!
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from what i understand Life is the process of becoming saved for a Catholic.

[jesussaves]

One more comment, because at the beginning I made perhaps a poor comment that people may be dwelling on. I was insinuating that you are causing biblical passages to contradict. To me, you are. But I do understand how you based on your positions could embrace even the Ephesians passage.

That said, I still have stated the two positions thoroughly. At least, I have not been shown otherwise. All I have been shown is people insisting we do not have different views regarding faith and works. Cannot we at least agree our views are different?

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 29 2005, 11:28 PM']That said, I still have stated the two positions thoroughly. At least, I have not been shown otherwise. All I have been shown is people insisting we do not have different views regarding faith and works. Cannot we at least agree our views are different?
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you didn't address anything I said in my posts, and i think a lot of other people are waiting for a response too.

I never insisted that our views were the same. I said that you have one picture of what it means to be a Catholic, and that the Catholic Church is different from what you think it is. what do you have to say about that?

I'm waiting for you to respond to the arguments I posed in my previous posts.

[dairygirl4u2c]

I think he did a pretty good assessment. But then I'm a silly protestant.

Edited November 30, 2005 by dairygirl4u2c

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Nov 29 2005, 11:52 PM']I think he did a pretty good assessment. But then I'm a silly protestant.
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you're a protestant? After all these years I honestly did not know that. I'm dead serious.

Gosh, I feel dumb. I always thought you were just checking out different religions but weren't a church goer.

[jesussaves]

Some have insisted that.

In that case that I am distorting you, please show me, using my own words, and be sure to look at all my threads because it appears you may have misinterpreted me, how I contradicted the Roman Church.

[dairygirl4u2c]

Well, I knew I was using the word loosely and probably should not have. Some use protestant as anyone who is not Catholic. I was using it in that sense and in a sense that I am a christian who is not catholic. Definitely not in the mainline protestant branch sense. my ideas of faith are different than most so my beliefs are more maliable. There are some core beliefs I have that I will not budge on. But really those core beliefs are often times pretty vaque. I can tell you a general idea of what I believe, core and otherwise, sometime if you want.

If you took those hippie liberal christians and catholics and combined them, that would probably be me. I do not agree much at all with anything from mainline christianity such as jesussaves. in fact, i agree more with the CC's faith and works stance than jesussaves. i only post because I think he made the distinction well. the CC has a lot of wisdom in her. i know i don't mention it much, i'm here to try to learn something or teach more about mostly about it's limitations.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Nov 30 2005, 12:18 AM']Well, I knew I was using the word loosely and probably should not have. Some use protestant as anyone who is not Catholic. I was using it in that sense and in a sense that I am a christian who is not catholic. Definitely not in the mainline protestant branch sense. my ideas of faith are different than most so my beliefs are more maliable. There are some core beliefs I have that I will not budge on. But really those core beliefs are often times pretty vaque. I can tell you a general idea of what I believe, core and otherwise, sometime if you want.

If you took those hippie liberal christians and catholics and combined them, that would probably be me. I do not agree much at all with anything from mainline christianity such as jesussaves. in fact, i agree more with the CC's faith and works stance than jesussaves. i only post because I think he made the distinction well. the CC has a lot of wisdom in her. i know i don't mention it much, i'm here to try to learn something or teach more about mostly about it's limitations.
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I think I've learned more about you in the last two minutes than I have in the last two years.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 30 2005, 12:03 AM']Some have insisted that.

In that case that I am distorting you, please show me, using my own words, and be sure to look at all my threads because it appears you may have misinterpreted me, how I contradicted the Roman Church.
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umm... you mean all those times where we quoted you and told you that you were misinterpreting Catholic teachings, and gave reasons why? I know I did that in previous posts what seems like 100000000000000 times

[Laudate_Dominum]

Why on earth is anyone supposed to believe that your personal theology is "the truth"? You've quoted and alluded to Martin Luther in a couple places, but overall you misrepresent Martin Luther's theology. And if its Catholic vs. Protestant, which protestant theology are we talking about? There are so many varieties.
Even among the early founders of the various traditions of men called protestantism there were many different meanings behind the rallying cry "sola fide". The followers of Luther at times insisted that the followers of Calvin were damned for their beliefs and vice versa. And what of Wesley, Zwingli and countless other figures? What about the slew of abhorrent theological monstrosities rampant in today's protestant milieu?

The "every man with the Holy Spirit and the Bible" hypothesis has been utterly discredited by the testimony of protestantism's own history to say nothing of common sense. And I'm afraid I must reject the implied thesis that you are an oracle of God as a very sad delusion of grandeur.

If you really believe you can debunk Catholic Theology your next step will be to demonstrate that your personal theology is more than likely "the truth". Or perhaps that the system of a particular heretical figure in history (Luther, Calvin, whoever) is "the truth".
I'm still not sure if you are representing a particular tradition of men, or if you are rather a self proclaimed vicar of Christ.

Oh, I know an anti-intellectual reaction might be a common approach for a protestant. But I must say appeals to sentimental, emotionally charged rhetoric or boring cliches are methods of evangelization unworthy of the Christian Faith. I think that approach should be left to the cultists and salesmen. Assuming that would be a temptation for you. Christianity has never been an uncritical fideistic assent to warm fuzzies.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Nov 30 2005, 12:18 AM']Well, I knew I was using the word loosely and probably should not have. Some use protestant as anyone who is not Catholic. I was using it in that sense and in a sense that I am a christian who is not catholic. Definitely not in the mainline protestant branch sense. my ideas of faith are different than most so my beliefs are more maliable. There are some core beliefs I have that I will not budge on. But really those core beliefs are often times pretty vaque. I can tell you a general idea of what I believe, core and otherwise, sometime if you want.

If you took those hippie liberal christians and catholics and combined them, that would probably be me. I do not agree much at all with anything from mainline christianity such as jesussaves. in fact, i agree more with the CC's faith and works stance than jesussaves. i only post because I think he made the distinction well. the CC has a lot of wisdom in her. i know i don't mention it much, i'm here to try to learn something or teach more about mostly about it's limitations.
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Wow, it's really cool to hear you talk about yourself for once. I'd love to hear about your beliefs some time. We don't have to debate either if you don't want to.

God bless you.

[rkwright]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 30 2005, 12:28 AM'] All I have been shown is people insisting we do not have different views regarding faith and works. Cannot we at least agree our views are different?
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re-read the posts in this thread, 75% of them (aside from the go post in the zombie thread) have been telling you our views on faiths and works are different!

Again the RC position is that Christ 'saves' us, but its an on going process. One cannot just say "I am saved!" then do whatever they want after that. RC's often say "I was saved by Jesus on the cross, am being saved, and hopefully will be saved at the day of judgement". Thus good works are necessary not to earn salvation, but in cooperation with salvation.

Your position is, say the words am BAM! I am saved for life, nothing I do can change that. But as people have pointed out to you through scripture this is not true.

This is the difference in justification between us! Because you have an idea of once saved always saved there is no need for works. We disagree with that.

Edited November 30, 2005 by rkwright

[Laudate_Dominum]

Just as a side point, justification ([i]dikaiosis[/i]) as understood by the Catholic Church, and I would say, as presented in the Holy Scriptures, is not in essence a juridical concept as most of protestant theology would seem to suppose.
If you have not done so already, you might be interested in reading the decrees on justification of the Council of Trent. [i]Dikaiosis[/i] is essentially incorporation into Christ in such a way that we attain a filial adoption and become children of God in Christ. We enter into a familial relationship and life in God.

The effect of Christ's atonement is [i]dikaiosis[/i] and [i]hagiasmos[/i]; justification and sanctification, and these cannot be rightly understood if they are juxtaposed or if one is denied.
What the Bible really teaches, if you ask me (and according to the Church, the one authority on earth capable of definitively teaching on such matters), is that we are given a new life in Christ and this is a truly transformative reality, not merely a juridical declaration. Christ did not merely merit the covering up of our sins, He merited our deification, [i]theosis[/i], that we might become partakers of the Divine Nature.

[Paphnutius]

I am still waiting if he agrees with my definition of justification Laudate, so I would not hold your breath...

Also I am still shocked to hear that dairy is a Christian, no offense or anything, but WOW!

[jesussaves]

I see no point in continuing. We agree that our stances are different. What you are saying right now is verifying our differences as I told them. I have not been shown how I am misinterpreting the Catholic Church, so I assume the case is closed unless I am shown otherwise.