salvation

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Nov 28 2005, 11:29 PM']Oh Photo

You make me chuckle!!!
Thanks for that!!
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[/quote]
anytime, anytime...

[jesussaves]

One more comment before I go to bed tonight. My assessment is proving to be correct; this thread is coming to a close, unless something new is posted. All I see is misunderstandings. I am tempted to correct what you all have been distorting in response to my recent postings, but instead I will repost a summary and hope all of you understand. Perhaps the best I can do is plant a seed.

I have a feeling that you distort, either because you do not understand, or more sorrowfully, because you do not want to understand. I suppose I should be reaching these ones. What you should be doing is agreeing that we have different positions, and I do understand your position.


Here is the difference one more time:
You. You beleive faith and works achieved through unmerited grace based on Jesus' sacrafice, perhaps even an extra heaping of grace at the end, is sufficient. But faith in your own works is what gets you to hell, even be they based on the sublte, yet damnable heresy of unmerited grace based on Jesus' sacrafice. (a distortion) The sad part of the gosple of Rome is that you think the dung must be removed before being declared legally clean, based on a distortion of the sacrafice of Jesus, and enter into heaven. This is not the truth.

Us. Faith in the completely unmerited atonement based on faith alone is what gets you heaven. The works flow out of appreciation of your salvation, but have no bearing on it. We think the dung can stay, and you can still be declared legally clean, due to the sacrafice of Jesus, and enter into heaven. We still remove the dung when living a christian life. Yet, when we accept the faith, we are perfect in God's eyes!


This doesn't address assurance, basis of authority, or a number of issues. I still stand by my offer to assist in understanding any of these other issues.

Edited November 29, 2005 by jesussaves

[Jaime]

[quote]This doesn't address assurance, basis of authority, or a number of issues. I still stand by my offer to assist in understanding any of these other issues.[/quote]

Well then you need to stick around brother!

[Era Might]

jesussaves,

If you would like to have a one on one discussion, I would be willing to do so, either in private or on a separate thread that only you and I respond to. This way, we can iron out whatever questions we may have about the Catholic and Protestant understandings, respectively, and keep ourselves focused. It's tough discussing in a general thread like this, because everyone has their own particular emphasis and way of explaining things, and it's hard to respond to them all.

Let me know...

[Guest T-Bone]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 28 2005, 11:15 PM']One more comment before I go to bed tonight. My assessment is proving to be correct; this thread is coming to a close, unless something new is posted. All I see is misunderstandings. I am tempted to correct what you all have been distorting in response to my recent postings, but instead I will repost a summary and hope all of you understand. Perhaps the best I can do is plant a seed. 
[/quote]
The only reason this thread will come to a close is that you are failing to answer our responses to you accusations.

[quote]I have a feeling that you distort, either because you do not understand, or more sorrowfully, because you do not want to understand. I suppose I should be reaching these ones. What you should be doing is agreeing that we have different positions, and I do understand your position.
[/quote]

It is you, my friend who misunderstands our position. You are the one who is distorting.

[quote]Here is the difference one more time:
You. You beleive faith and works achieved through unmerited grace based on Jesus' sacrafice, perhaps even an extra heaping of grace at the end, is sufficient. But faith in your own works is what gets you to hell, even be they based on the sublte, yet damnable heresy of unmerited grace based on Jesus' sacrafice. (a distortion) [b]The sad part of the gosple of Rome is that you think the dung must be removed before being declared legally clean[/b], based on a distortion of the sacrafice of Jesus, and enter into heaven. This is not the truth.
[/quote]

What is unclean is not clean. The uncleanliness must be removed before something is clean. This is reality. Not a distortion.

(I'd appreciate it if you stopped claiming you know what the Catholic Church teaches. YOU DON'T! At least read the Catachism...)

[quote]Us. [ME]  Faith in the completely unmerited atonement based on faith alone is what gets you heaven. The works flow out of appreciation of your salvation, but have no bearing on it. We think the dung can stay, and you can still be declared legally clean, due to the sacrafice of Jesus, and enter into heaven. We still remove the dung when living a christian life. Yet, when we accept the faith, we are perfect in God's eyes!
This doesn't address assurance, basis of authority, or a number of issues. I still stand by my offer to assist in understanding any of these other issues.
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[photosynthesis]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 29 2005, 12:15 AM']What you should be doing is agreeing that we have different positions, and I do understand your position.
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"should" is a dirty, dirty word, my friend.

We have different positions. I happen to think that the Catholic position is the correct one But the us 'n them attitude you seem to take in your post dos not lead to Christian unity. All you seem to be saying is "I'm right, you're wrong for trying to argue with me and you just don't understand how right I am." Maybe instead of saying "this thread is coming to a close" you should actually read some of our posts and engage with what we're trying to say. I don't know where you got your information about Catholicism, but your understanding of Catholic soteriology is unenlightened, to say the least.

if this thread is indeed coming to a close, it is only because of cowardice and arrogance on your part.

[Paphnutius]

Yes please engage what we have said. You are evading our questions and statements asserting something that you have yet to prove.

[Church Punk]

First I must say, you have balls coming in here like that, and you do seem to at least have some valid arguments. Kudos!

The truth is that one day, we will stand before our Maker and we will be required to give account for the "talents" the Lord has given to us. You can say Lord I have faith, but that has already been given to you, we must propagate our “talents” so we can say “see Master, you have given me five talents and I have made five more talents over and above.”

How can we propagate our talents with out any work? How can we advance the Kingdom with out work?

The sheer act of good deeds is a direct antonym to sin, how can good be called evil?

If you have all faith when you stand before the Lord what will happen if he asks you to prove it? What will you prove your faith with more faith? The good works prove your faith, thus reassuring your salvation. Faith and works are indissoluble, is not the mere act of prayer a work in its self?

Or vice versa, if you have all works and no faith how can you justify your salvation with out even believing.

[quote]41  Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
42  For I was hungry and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty and you gave me not to drink.
43  I was a stranger and you took me not in: naked and you covered me not: sick and in prison and you did not visit me.
44  Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to thee?
45  Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen: I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
46  And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

- Mathew 25
[/quote]

I encourage you to dialogue with us; perhaps we can learn a thing or two from you. Who knows maybe you may learn a thing or two from us.

Welcome to Phatmass!

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 26 2005, 04:09 PM']I am sorry to shake your website with the truth, but the Roman Church's teachings are lies. Truth is what you need. Please repent unto the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins.
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clearly you've never triod to seriously look at Catholic teaching. Catholics fully affirm Ephesians and the entire unadulterated Bible to be the infallible Word of God and Catholics pray for forgiveness and repent of their sins on a daily basis. Our hope is in the Lord Jesus Christ. Be open minded. Now I didn't say convert to the Catholic Church, I just said be open minded. Be willing to learn about others different from yourself, be it culturally, racially, or even religiously different. You may surprise yourself by finding you are a better Christian for it. Spend a month reading about the Catholic faith from Catholics instead of your Protestant friends. Think about it, if you wanted to learn about Asian culture would you ask a Mexican? If you wanted to learn about Buddhism would you ask a Muslim? Consider it an opportunity to expand your horizons.

[Jaime]

And Adam used to be saved!!

[toledo_jesus]

I wonder who put him up to this. He's not engaging in debate, just spewing the party line.

[Theoketos]

A visitor from the Baptist Board prehaps?

What happens if we all admit that Jesus is our Lord and Savior?
What happens if we all admit that Jesus is capable of forgiving Sin?

Um I will try to one better.

I believe that Jesus Christ is King, Lord, Savior of mankind, whohumbled himself becoming man, to hang once upon a Cross for the sake of truly bringing us into the life of the Trinity by the forgiveness of sin.

Every Catholic on the board confesses this with his or her whole heart every time they go to Mass and as we pray unceasingly with our other works that are good because of grace.

[Theoketos]

A visitor from the Baptist Board prehaps?

What happens if we all admit that Jesus is our Lord and Savior?
What happens if we all admit that Jesus is capable of forgiving Sin?

Um I will try to one better.

I believe that Jesus Christ is King, Lord, Savior of mankind, whohumbled himself becoming man, to hang once upon a Cross for the sake of truly bringing us into the life of the Trinity by the forgiveness of sin.

Every Catholic on the board confesses this with his or her whole heart every time they go to Mass and as we pray unceasingly with our other works that are good because of grace.

[Gal. 5:22,23]

Is the same Jesus Saves from mylifeafter.com?

He had nice words for Phatmass last year...





Jesus Saves



Joined: 02 Mar 2004
Posts: 1428
Location: Anywhere God leads me.
Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:31 am
Post subject:

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You brother and sisters are a blessing. I had (yesterday) to just sit back and watch in the Lord. You Phatmass' (in my words) seemed to have been doing alot of cleaning if you know what I mean. LOL. I want to thank God for such an awesome move for his name. I ask God to bless you all and to help you all to keep your faith in God. For without God we are nothing.


[url="http://www.mylifeafter.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=451&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60"]http://www.mylifeafter.com/forums/viewtopi...er=asc&start=60[/url]

[rkwright]

JesusSaves

Welcome!

I am a bit new here also, actually most of the Catholics don't really know me here either but thats ok... I'll throw in my 2 cents.

I really urge you to re-read some of the posts above, and then we can really discuss the differences. The answers are there.

I'll repeat what others have said...
The difference is in our definition of Justification. To put in your terms (and this is probably and over simplification of Catholic teaching) Justification for us is both what you call Justification and Santification all in one.

I think for clarity its important you understand the catholic teaching, otherwise we can't get anywhere. It's no good to tell us were wrong if you don't know what we're wrong about. I'll try my best, but I am far from an authoritative figure on Catholic teaching. Catholic teaching goes something like this...

Man is saved by the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. Any person who confesses this with his mouth and believes this in his heart is saved, however our salvation is dependent on what we do after this and how we live our life. We were saved at our time of acceptance of Jesus Christ, we are being saved now through our perseverance in Jesus Christ, and we hope that we will be judged worthy of salvation at the time of our death.

What we refer to in works are the ongoing efforts of salvation. Look to 1 Cor 9:24-27, where Paul speaks of salvation like running a race. It is not enough to just start the race (to just say Jesus is your savior), one must actually finish the race!