salvation

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Nov 28 2005, 10:01 PM']Calling people "a joke" isn't nice, Sam... and it's "you're"
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im sorry but this sir, or madam will not respond to anyones else's posts and then he comes and says what we believe is heresy. its all quite funny really

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Nov 28 2005, 10:05 PM']im sorry but this sir, or madam will not respond to anyones else's posts and then he comes and says what we believe is heresy. its all quite funny really
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well be nice. he's been drawn into our web. We'll never convert him if we scare him off.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 28 2005, 09:53 PM']I disagree with the notion that you must cooperate with grace in the good works to achieve justification, the righteous declaration from God. One must only cooperate in accepting faith/truth to achieve salvation. I call this justification.
[/quote]
Once again you are using a definition that we both disagree on. I am getting sleepy and have learned that my coherence level declines after a certain hour so let me post the Catholic understanding of justification and sanctification tomorrow, then we can get somewhere. For we do not believe that we are justified simply by decleration, as I have mentioned nothing unclean being admitted into heaven. You actually have to be [i]made [/i]clean! Thus the difference between imuptiated and infused...

[quote]To say that you must participate to achieve this salvation is heresy. You may say that the grace that you are participating in is unwarranted, true. But in the end you must participate with your will, which is ultimately good works. I admit it's not as blatant, but at best it's a subtle, damnable heresy.
[/quote]What is your basis for a heresy?

[jesussaves]

--You actually have to be made clean!--

Even if we reconciled our wording, we would still disagree with the basic concepts. I recall a phrase to this effect: "Though my sins be like dung, they shall be made like snow"

We think the dung can stay, and you can still be declared legally clean, due to the sacrafice of Jesus, and enter into heaven. We still remove the dung when living a christian life. Yet, when we accept the faith, we are perfect in God's eyes!

The sad part of the gosple of Rome is that you think the dung must be removed before being declared legally clean, based on a distortion of the sacrafice of Jesus, and enter into heaven. This is not the truth.

When speaking in theological terms, perhaps you simply like your version better. But which is the truth? Which will bring you to heaven?

Edited November 29, 2005 by jesussaves

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 28 2005, 09:53 PM']To say that you must participate to achieve this salvation is heresy. You may say that the grace that you are participating in is unwarranted, true. But in the end you must participate with your will, which is ultimately good works. I admit it's not as blatant, but at best it's a subtle, damnable heresy.
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dude, protestants don't even have enough of a hierarchical structure to declare what is and is not heresy. Heresy is the the willful disobedience to Church teaching.

Let's define what it means to cooperate with God's grace.

OK, so we're all sinners, right? We've all done a few things in our lives that we're not too proud of. Romans 3:23 blah blah blah. Sin is serious business, and it separates us from God, who cannot allow anything unclean to enter into His Eternal Presence. Got that? Good.

God's a merciful God, right? So he sends His Son Jesus down to live as one of us, to give us the Gospel and to atone for EVERYONE'S sins once and for all by dying for us on the cross.

Through Christ's final atonement, God's grace is available to us when we put our faith in Him and LET HIM INTO OUR LIVES.

That's what cooperating with God's grace is. It's letting God work in your life. God loves us so much, He wants to be an active part of our lives...the driving force behind everything we do. He doesn't want to be left out.

In Phillipians 2, St. Paul says:

[quote name='Phillipians 2:12-16']So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.  For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.[/quote]

Matthew 7:21 says It is not enough to call Jesus, "Lord." It is not enough to say he is your Savior. For those who [b]do the will of the Father[/b] will inherit the Kingdom of God. It does require an act of the will in order to be saved... you have to give up your will and die to yourself so that you can do the will of the Father and live in Christ.

[Jaime]

Here's what always intrigues me

According to protestants, faith alone gets you to heaven

But faith and works sends you to hell?


Interesting

[toledo_jesus]

jesussaves,
is talking about zombies heresy?
We have an academic discussion going on about them. I'd like to see your viewpoint.

[jesussaves]

-According to protestants, faith alone gets you to heaven
But faith and works sends you to hell?-

Properly understood, yes. I want to reiterate one more time to be sure.

Faith in your own works is what gets you to hell, even be they based on the sublte, yet damnable heresy of unmerited grace.

Faith in the completely unmerited atonement is what gets you heaven. The works flow out of appreciation of your salvation, but have no bearing on it.

To hold onto the former is stubborness and a rejection to the Holy Spirit. Please pray strongly that you may realize the peace and salvation of the latter.

I have a feeling this thread is coming to a conclusion. But I am willing to dialouge on any issues with which you are stuggling. Please start a new dialouge, and I will give you an honest answer to the best of my ability based on the bible and the Holy Spirit.

Edited November 29, 2005 by jesussaves

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 28 2005, 11:05 PM']
I have a feeling this thread is coming to a conclusion. But I am willing to dialouge on any issues with which you are stuggling. Please start a new dialouge, and I will give you an honest answer to the best of my ability based on the bible and reason.
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Is it morally permissible to kill someone who has been bitten by a zombie, before they turn into a zombie?

[Jaime]

No reason to leave now JS. Things are just getting interesting.


Please stick around. These threads can go on for pages.


We're just getting warmed up.


Welcome to the debate board brother!!

[Paphnutius]

Ok I could not keep away for too long. I could not sleep otherwise...

JS if I may call you that, would you agree with the definition that jsutification is being made righteous or right with God? (Rom 5:18-19)

If we can come to discuss this then we can move on without so many side tangents as we have. One point in theology is often connecte with 20, so lets try to keep this as focused as possible. Is my definition of justification acceptable to you?

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 28 2005, 11:05 PM']Faith in your own works is what gets you to hell, even be they based on the sublte, yet damnable heresy of unmerited grace.

Faith in the completely unmerited atonement is what gets you heaven. The works flow out of appreciation of your salvation, but have no bearing on it.
[/quote]
This is where you mistunderstand our position. We do not have faith in our own works, but our works flow from the merits of Christ.

In Catholic theology we understand that any good we do is a cooperation with God as the supreme good. We are responsible for it in so far as we cooperated with it.

So you believe that one may have faith in Christ, continue to sin and yet go to heaven? Is sin not a rejection of God? For those that love God keep His commandments no?

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Nov 28 2005, 10:04 PM']hey hey hey!  read my post!  respond to MEEEEEEEE!!!!!
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hey man at least he didn't lump what you said in with what another person said in between two quotation marks.

if i'm a journalist and I do that in a newspaper I lose my job and my reputation.

jesussaves, welcome to Phatmass. This is how you quote people:

[code] [quote]whatever you want to say[/quote] [/code]


[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 28 2005, 10:49 PM']We think the dung can stay, and you can still be declared legally clean, due to the sacrafice of Jesus, and enter into heaven. We still remove the dung when living a christian life. Yet, when we accept the faith, we are perfect in God's eyes!
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if living a Christian life was a way to "remove the dung" wouldn't that also suggest that you can REMOVE your own sins by your works?

in John 1:21, St. John the Baptist says, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world!" He didn't say, "covers the sins of the world," he says that Jesus takes our sins away.

your snow-covered-dung analogy reminds ond of my old boyfriends. He didn't shower often enough, and he used to dump cologne all over himself, thinking that it would make him smell clean. But it didn't! It just made him smell even worse! Needless to say he didn't stay my boyfriend for very long :

[Jaime]

Oh Photo

You make me chuckle!!!


Thanks for that!!

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 28 2005, 11:05 PM']Faith in your own works is what gets you to hell, even be they based on the sublte, yet damnable heresy of unmerited grace.

Faith in the completely unmerited atonement is what gets you heaven. The works flow out of appreciation of your salvation, but have no bearing on it.

To hold onto the former is stubborness and a rejection to the Holy Spirit. Please pray strongly that you may realize the peace and salvation of the latter.
[/quote]
You are seriously misunderstanding the teachings of the Catholic Church.

it is only BECAUSE of God's grace, and our cooperation with grace, that we can perform any good work at all.

I don't know where you got this idea that Catholics believe their own works will get them to heaven, or that Catholics think you can earn salvation. Because in my entire life as a Catholic I have never come across anyone who actually believes that! Perhaps you watch too much television?

again, read the Catholic Church's "Statement of Faith," the Nicene Creed, that I posted. THAT is what the Church teaches, that is what it means to have Catholic faith. Catholics are Christians! we believe in the same savior as you do, and we don't have faith in ourselves and our own works, we have faith in Jesus just like you.

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 28 2005, 11:05 PM']I have a feeling this thread is coming to a conclusion.
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feelings are not always correct, my friend!