salvation

[jesussaves]

Thank you for your kind response. I have two points to make, one minor and one major.

The minor is in response to our friend above who asked me what Rom 2:5-8 meant. Remember, justification is God declaring us legally clean, through no act of our own, other than faith, based on Christ's attonment. So, two things you should remember when reading these types of passages. One is that often times Jesus is only referring to punishing those who are lost without faith in Christ. Those who are saved will receive their appropriate rewards. The other point flows from this. Even the saved receive different degrees of awards. This is called sanctification, which flows after justification. Never doubt your salvation in Christ. If a passage doesn't make sense to you, seek advise from an elder or pray more.

The major point that I wanted to make is also flows from all this. Look at your Catholic Church and what the priests and laity speak of in their masses and elsewhere. They very rarely mention Christ's atonement. Or if they do, they don't mention how it covers our sins. They claim that works need to be added to earn grace. Grace in some messed up world might acheive justification. But praise God! As the bible says, our grace is by faith, which cannot be earned. If explained adequately, perhaps more Catholics would realize that nothing needs to be added to his infinte and perfect atonement. Now look at our saved brethern. They speak loud and to the mountains regarding the atonement and how nothing needs to be added. The faith that saves is faith in this true and perfect atonement. Anything else is subpar and of the Evil One.

As Jesus teached, I will preach to you the Good News. Those who hear, praise God. For your sake, if necessary, let your conversion be quiet at first. A exuberant conversion is not necessary for salvation; only faith is.

I do not want to resort to shaking the sand off my shoes when I leave this board if you do not heed my message. So everyone else, please pray long and hard to JESUS, for the conversion of your souls. May God bless you.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

i don't kow much about justification. but doesn't the good works COME FROM the grace?

[Era Might]

[quote]The major point that I wanted to make is also flows from all this. Look at your Catholic Church and what the priests and laity speak of in their masses and elsewhere. They very rarely mention Christ's atonement. Or if they do, they don't mention how it covers our sins.[/quote]

I have looked at my Catholic Church, and I have payed attention to what my Priests preach at my Catholic Church. They preach a total self-giving to Jesus Christ. Love of God and love of neighbor. In essence, they preach the Gospel.

If you feel you must wipe the dust from your feet, by all means. But don't do so with a martyr's complex. You are welcome to stay and dialogue intelligently with us. If you ever want to dialogue one on one, feel free to PM me.

God bless.

Edited November 29, 2005 by Era Might

[Ash Wednesday]

Was the debate between faith and works that Luther was calling into question NOT recently resolved between the Lutheran Church, and the Catholic Church with a joint statement about justification? I believe it was.

[quote]The major point that I wanted to make is also flows from all this. Look at your Catholic Church and what the priests and laity speak of in their masses and elsewhere. They very rarely mention Christ's atonement. Or if they do, they don't mention how it covers our sins. They claim that works need to be added to earn grace.[/quote]

Where do you get this information from? Have you actually been to a Catholic mass? How many? The scriptures are read at greater length at a mass than at many protestant/evangelical services. And the Church also goes through the entire bible, not just a few choice passages here and there.

[Guest T-Bone]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 28 2005, 07:09 PM']Thank you for your kind response. I have two points to make, one minor and one major.

The minor is in response to our friend above who asked me what Rom 2:5-8 meant. Remember, justification is God declaring us legally clean, through no act of our own, other than faith, based on Christ's attonment. So, two things you should remember when reading these types of passages. One is that often times Jesus is only referring to punishing those who are lost without faith in Christ. Those who are saved will receive their appropriate rewards. The other point flows from this. Even the saved receive different degrees of awards. This is called sanctification, which flows after justification. Never doubt your salvation in Christ. [b]If a passage doesn't make sense to you, seek advise from an elder or pray more.[/b][/quote]


That's what Catholics do. We LISTEN TO OUR "ELDERS" (ie the Magistratum). What a suprise! Give us some usefull advice.

[quote]The major point that I wanted to make is also flows from all this. [b]Look at your Catholic Church and what the priests and laity speak of in their masses and elsewhere.[/b] They very rarely mention Christ's atonement. Or if they do, they don't mention how it covers our sins. They claim that works need to be added to earn grace.
[/quote]

Have you ever actually been to a Catholic Mass? I have never once heard the claim by a competent authority in the Church that works are needed to earn Grace. The Church teaches that Grace is a [i]free[/i] gift from God.

If you can find a competent authority in the Church that makes the claim you propagate, direct me there. Otherwise you are just building straw men (and doing a very poor job at it).


[quote]Grace in some messed up world might acheive justification. But praise God! As the bible says, our grace is by faith, which cannot be earned. [b]If explained adequately, perhaps more Catholics would realize that nothing needs to be added to his infinte and perfect atonement[/b]. Now look at our saved brethern. They speak loud and to the mountains regarding the atonement and how nothing needs to be added. The faith that saves is faith in this true and perfect atonement. Anything else is subpar and of the Evil One.
[/quote]

If you'd open your ears and listen to Catholic Teaching explained adequately, you'd realize that you're the one who is confused.

[quote]As Jesus teached, I will preach to you the Good News. Those who hear, praise God. For your sake, if necessary, let your conversion be quiet at first. A exuberant conversion is not necessary for salvation; only faith is.

[b]I do not want to resort to shaking the sand off my shoes when I leave this board if you do not heed my message. [/b]So everyone else, please pray long and hard to JESUS, for the conversion of your souls. May God bless you.
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[/quote]

Start shaking your sandals. You're not doing a good job of converting anyone here.

PAX,

The great and magnificent T-Bone

[Ash Wednesday]

Oops, I forgot to elaborate... I heard about Christ's atonement and the price he paid for our sins through the bible. At mass.

Welcome to phatmass! Have a taco!

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 28 2005, 01:15 PM']Note that the gloom of Catholic Churches makes it apparent that to truly encounter Christ, one must leave the Catholic Church. Compare the Catholic Church with the life in Christian assemblies.
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my brother in Christ,

I'm not sure what kind of "gloom" you're talking about, but I do know the Catholic Church has been under persecution ever since Jesus founded it! He never promised us earthly consolation and a life of pleasure. Instead, he told us that if the world is to persecute Him, then as His disciples we shall be persecuted too.

Persecution ain't fun. Sometimes life is tough. but there is a difference between happiness and joy. Happiness is fake and fleeting, joy is true and eternal. Happiness is experiencing pleasure and consolation from the world. We can't rely on happiness, as Christians we must rely on joy. While Jesus didn't promise us worldly pleasure, he DID promise us eternal life. As a Catholic I claim that promise and pray that I will persevere to the end.

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 28 2005, 08:09 PM']Now look at our saved brethern. They speak loud and to the mountains regarding the atonement and how nothing needs to be added.
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[/quote]
it doesn't matter how loud you proclaim the Gospel! Truth is truth, no matter how it is communicated. The protestants on TV have big mouths, they are LOUD, boisterous and talk talk talk. but just because it's loud, doesn't mean it's true.

Catholicism is full of subtle beauty. do you even know what Catholics believe? I am a faithful Catholic and never ONCE have I ever had a priest told me that you can "earn" grace. That is heresy. I encourage you to examine te Catholic faith for yourself, rather than by listening to ignorant people around you.

if you want to know what Catholics believe, look no further to our "Statement of Faith," the Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
[i]For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.[/i]

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 28 2005, 08:09 PM']Remember, justification is God declaring us legally clean, through no act of our own, other than faith, based on Christ's attonment.  The other point flows from this. Even the saved receive different degrees of awards. This is called sanctification, which flows after justification. Never doubt your salvation in Christ. If a passage doesn't make sense to you, seek advise from an elder or pray more.[/quote]
Phil 2:12-13....

These two are definitions that you have brought into the discussion without agreement. I disagree with your definitions (which causes this debate between certain peoples) and would invite you to dialogue about them. In other words, your definitions presuppose your arguement.

[quote]They very rarely mention Christ's atonement. Or if they do, they don't mention how it covers our sins. They claim that works need to be added to earn grace. Grace in some messed up world might acheive justification. But praise God! As the bible says, our grace is by faith, which cannot be earned.[/quote]I just got done praying Night prayer from the Divine Office (the Liturgy of the Hours), which is the official prayer of the Church including Psalms, New Testaments canticles and readings, and such. I actually heard over and over about Christ's atonement. The Mass is shot through with it. Have you attended many Masses or prayings of the Divine Office?

Also once again you are working from your own definitions that are not agreed upon. We do not believe in simply a covering of sins for nothing unclean shall be admitted into heaven and a covering means you are still dirty underneath. We believe in infused not imputiated (sp?).

Has anyone explained to you the Catholic position concerning this topic? We do not consider our works adding anything to grace, but is rather our cooperation with grace. Do you deny that one must cooperate with grace?

Pax Christi.

Edited November 29, 2005 by Paphnutius

[toledo_jesus]

jesussaves,
why don't you just chill with the evangelizing and hang out here for a while? You can have your views, but we'd really like to see you as a person rather than a bunch of debunked Protestant arguments. Stick around, join the group. It's fun here. We have a thread about zombies.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

does anyone know the answer to my question?

Doesn't the Good works COME from the grace.?

im confused

[jesussaves]

**We do not consider our works adding anything to grace, but is rather our cooperation with grace. Do you deny that one must cooperate with grace?
I am a faithful Catholic and never ONCE have I ever had a priest told me that you can "earn" grace. That is heresy.**

I do not disagree that you need to cooperate with grace in sanctification. Sanctification is where, because of your faith, you have been declared righteous in the eyes of God, despite your sins, because of the love of God. You must cooperate to mature into a follower that does good works. We were indeed made for good works, as the Bible indicates. The good works flow from an appreciation of God's accomplished salvation in your life.

I disagree with the notion that you must cooperate with grace in the good works to achieve justification, the righteous declaration from God. One must only cooperate in accepting faith/truth to achieve salvation. I call this justification. That is what is so Good about the Good News!

To say that you must participate to achieve this salvation is heresy. You may say that the grace that you are participating in is unwarranted, true. But in the end you must participate with your will, which is ultimately good works. I admit it's not as blatant, but at best it's a subtle, damnable heresy.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote]**We do not consider our works adding anything to grace, but is rather our cooperation with grace. Do you deny that one must cooperate with grace?
I am a faithful Catholic and never ONCE have I ever had a priest told me that you can "earn" grace. That is heresy.**

I do not disagree that you need to cooperate with grace in sanctification. Sanctification is where, because of your faith, you have been declared righteous in the eyes of God, despite your sins, because of the love of God. You must cooperate to mature into a follower that does good works. We were indeed made for good works, as the Bible indicates. The good works flow from an appreciation of God's accomplished salvation in your life.

I disagree with the notion that you must cooperate with grace in the good works to achieve justification, the righteous declaration from God. One must only cooperate in accepting faith/truth to achieve salvation. I call this justification. That is what is so Good about the Good News!

To say that you must participate to achieve this salvation is heresy. You may say that the grace that you are participating in is unwarranted, true. But in the end you must participate with your will, which is ultimately good works. I admit it's not as blatant, but at best it's a subtle, damnable heresy.
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your such a joke.

Edited November 29, 2005 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Nov 28 2005, 09:33 PM'] We have a thread about zombies.
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[/quote]

ZoMbiEs....

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Nov 28 2005, 09:57 PM']your such a joke. 
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[/quote]
Calling people "a joke" isn't nice, Sam... and it's "you're"

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 28 2005, 09:53 PM']**We do not consider our works adding anything to grace, but is rather our cooperation with grace. Do you deny that one must cooperate with grace?
I am a faithful Catholic and never ONCE have I ever had a priest told me that you can "earn" grace. That is heresy.**

I do not disagree that you need to cooperate with grace in sanctification. Sanctification is where, because of your faith, you have been declared righteous in the eyes of God, despite your sins, because of the love of God. You must cooperate to mature into a follower that does good works. We were indeed made for good works, as the Bible indicates. The good works flow from an appreciation of God's accomplished salvation in your life.

I disagree with the notion that you must cooperate with grace in the good works to achieve justification, the righteous declaration from God. One must only cooperate in accepting faith/truth to achieve salvation. I call this justification. That is what is so Good about the Good News!

To say that you must participate to achieve this salvation is heresy. You may say that the grace that you are participating in is unwarranted, true. But in the end you must participate with your will, which is ultimately good works. I admit it's not as blatant, but at best it's a subtle, damnable heresy.
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[/quote]
hey hey hey! read my post! respond to MEEEEEEEE!!!!!