salvation

[Gal. 5:22,23]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Dec 2 2005, 10:12 PM']

For this reason, one must interpret the gosple with the Holy Spirit.
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And again I ask, who is the Holy Spirit enabling to interpret Scripture? Here are a few possible answers. And He must only be helping one of these groups because NONE of them agree.


Lutherans- Luther
Church of Christ-Christian Church
Anabaptists- Zwingli
Reformed: United, Presbyterian...
Mormons
Calvinists- Calvin
Adventists
Church of England-Henry VIII
Salvation Army
Jehovah's Witnesses...
Presbyterians
Evangelicalism, Fundamentalism
Puritans
Pentecostals
Congregationalists
Charismatic Renewal
Episcopalians
Baptists
Quakers. Society of Friends
Shakers
Moravians
Methodists

Edited December 3, 2005 by Gal. 5:22,23

[Paphnutius]

[quote]He is not showing me how I have misinterpreted the Catholic Church. If that were the case, I'd be stating why it is I think what I do and listening to you for correction. But you are not correcting me, you are stating why it is you think your position is right. I did not come here to debate this; I know the arguments. I came to enlighten and be enlightened on your gospel and mine, [/quote]

Here is how you understand our position:[quote]Your position includes the works as necessary to be saved. Perhaps you will say yours is out of gratitude, [b]but you still insist the gratitude or whathave you adds to Christ.[/b][/quote]That bolded part is where you misunderstand our position. Understand? I am pointing out where you do not understand our position. When I asked you to point out where we have said this, you were not able to present anything. You say that we beleive our acts add something to the grace of Christ, yet you are unable to show where we believe this. I think that would constitute as a misunderstanding. Understand?

Catholics do not, I repeat [b]do not [/b] believe that our works add to Christ's action, merit for us salvation, or justify us. Got that? If you can prove differently (that we state our works save us) go for it, but I think that you will be dissapointed.

Let us take a look at what you say. I have asked you repeatedly if genuine faith is always accompanied by works. You try some fancy foot work to clarify your position before presenting it, but you ultimately answer Yes. I quote you in reference to works and faith:[quote]Man is justified by faith alone, but faith is never alone[/quote]You are quoting Luther there in response to James. So genuine faith is always accompanied by works.

So I then ask you: "If one does not have works does one have genuine faith?" I can imagine you will try to dodge this, so I will do my best to understand your position. You would more than likely say, "No." If one does not have works one must not have genuine faith. Now, let us put this all together shall we?

Jusitification is by faith.
Faith is always accompanied by works.
Without works faith is dead (James2:ff...) It is not genuine.
So if faith is dependent on works, would justification not also be?

Notice, we are NOT saying that we we are justified by our works. I have quoted you the Catechism of the Catholic Church that shows the Catholic position is that we are justifed only by the grace of God. Our works do not win or earn for us salvation, but without works we cannot be justified since they are so bound up with living faith as you said:[quote] Profession of faith is not enough. Mere mental assent to the Gospel truths is not enough. One must have living faith, and that is manifest by good works.[/quote]You are a bit more Catholic than you would like to admit my friend. We believe that only Christ can and has won for us salvation. We must obey and follow Him as He has repeatedly said:[quote]7:21. Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
[/quote] So we must do the will of the Father. That does not mean that by doing the will of the Father we earn salvation, but that we are to do it if we wish to be saved. Your rhetoric is at its end; it is time to discuss the points. I have shown you here in simple terms where you have misunderstood our position.

I recommend, my brother, that you re-read the Gospel (there is only one! There is no your gospel and our gospel. Please quit that, it is annoying) and pray hard on them.

Go with the peace of Christ.

Edited December 3, 2005 by Paphnutius

[jesussaves]

Thank you for your engaging posts Pap. I have a few comments and questions. I had not been intending to dodge your questions regarding works in the Catholic Church, per se. I didn't respond to you because I have expressed many times that the works in the Catholic Church are through grace, and to respond to you is one out of so many people who I thought just didn't get it; it would be impractical to respond to all of these people; and it was nothing new to add. But you frame the situation differently. I would like to address it now.

This is the heresy that the Catholic Church says is wrong the way I understand it teaches. Works that are from yourself without the grace of God do not count. Works by the unmerited grace of God count. Note this is how I have been expressing it, although not explicitly in every thread I have posted. I often say that works are necessary to the Catholic Church, because in the final count, past all the fancy footwork on your part, you say works are necessary. (though about with grace) Ultimately, the final judgement by God is grace alone in the Cat Church, true, but this is still based on your faith and graced works. Our gosple grace in the final measure comes from faith alone. Let us be clear what our grace is based on; it must be based on something, lest everyone be saved.

You say I am more Catholic than I realize. You say this because I feel works are in a sense necessary. If we are so similar, do you agree with Luther then when he says we are justified by faith alone, but faith is never alone? Apparently you agree with him, since you say the Catholic Church teaches that works are not part of the equation.

Also, apparently all those fathers who say we are justified by faith alone you agree with?
Here is Trent:
Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.
Am I misinterpreting Trent in this canon? Are they saying that a faith alone that has no works is wrong, but they are not saying a faith alone that has works is what justifies?

Edited December 3, 2005 by jesussaves

[jesussaves]

Here is a distinguishing point. In the Catholic Church, one must keep oneself justified through one's good works. If you do good, you'll be expected to do more ad infinitum. Any wrong you do casts doubt as to your justification.

But our scenario is that someone can have rejected everything and lived wrecklessly. That doesn't necessarily mean the person doesn't have true faith. That only indicates the person is human. That person recognizes their sinful ways and takes solace in Christ. Eventually that person would produce good works. Maybe this is how you would frame your situation in the Catholic Church too.

I suppose if we do not assume we are once saved, always saved, as many would claim but I've personally had doubts about, we should not assume so much the distingishing point I mentioned above.

Apparently you must admit that faith alone saves in a sense. Maybe we do not disagree, I don't know..

Edited December 3, 2005 by jesussaves

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Dec 3 2005, 03:26 PM']
Thank you for your engaging posts Pap.
[/quote]Anytime.

[QUOTE]Works that are from yourself without the grace of God do not count. Works by the unmerited grace of God count.[/QUOTE]Any good work is a cooperation with grace from God.

[QUOTE]I often say that works are necessary to the Catholic Church,[/QUOTE]You say that they are necessary for you too:[QUOTE]The works are necessary in my position, out of gratitude, but they do not justify.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Our gosple grace in the final measure comes from faith alone.[/QUOTE]And this is the whole discussion isnt it? Please show me where it says that it is by faith [i]alone[/i]. Others have pointed out many passages where it says that one must act as well as have faith.

[QUOTE]If we are so similar, do you agree with Luther then when he says we are justified by faith alone, but faith is never alone? Apparently you agree with him, since you say the Catholic Church teaches that works are not part of the equation.
[/QUOTE]You misunderstand me. I never said that works were not part of the equation, but said that our works do not justify us. Via Canon 1 of session 6 of the Council of Trent[QUOTE]CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.
[/QUOTE] Our works do not merit salvation except through Christ's grace. I can easily say the same thing about your notion of faith. Are you justifying yourself by your faith? Does your faith merit for you salvation?

[QUOTE]Here is Trent:
Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.
[/QUOTE] What that canon is saying is that if someone says that justifying faith is nothing more that confidence in divine mercy, let him be excommunicated. Or if someone says that this confidence alone is what justifies, likewise. Since you like Trent here is another canon from that same session:[QUOTE]CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]In the Catholic Church, one must keep oneself justified through one's good works. If you do good, you'll be expected to do more ad infinitum. Any wrong you do casts doubt as to your justification.
[/QUOTE]I thought that you did not want to go into assurance on this thread...Plus, once again, we do not [i]keep ourselves justified [/i]through works.

[QUOTE]Apparently you must admit that faith alone saves in a sense.[/QUOTE]Why must I admit that? All that I have said is that man cannot save or merit salvation by his own works, but only through Christ. This does not mean, as you seem to take it, that works are not necessary, but simply that we do not place faith in our works as you make us out to do.

[jesussaves]

Nothing new has been illustrated afterall.

My initial impressions of the Catholic Church were correct. You are justified through graced works. Tell me, do the works which you do through the grace of God justify you?

This and your last post indicate that the do:
[quote]CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, [b]that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification[/b], and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.[/quote]

[quote]Plus, once again, we do not keep ourselves justified through works. [/quote]

It appears that either your graced works keep you justified, or your graced works give you the final grace.

Remember, grace comes from something. From us it's faith; if you want to say we merited the grace through our faith so be it. Regardless, what is the requirement for you to receive the grace, is it faith and graced works or not? You seem to not answer this question for some reason.
If I am misinterpreting the Catholic Church, part of it is because I cannot get a clear answer here...


Your last thread that I thought was engaging was really just you misinterpreting me saying that Catholics are saved by works; by works I meant graced works. What I thought was you declaring that the graced works do not justify was only you saying works without the grace of God do not justify.

It was engaging, because, I must admit that works are necessary. It appeared we were similar in stance. I will agree with you that works are necessary. They do not, however, justify. You must have them, but the faith alone is what justifies. The graced works are filthy rags when paying the price of Justification.

--------------

So now that I have reestablished what I have said all along, I would like to ask you a question. Look at those quotes from the fathers who say we are justified by faith alone. To me, it indicates my position. You can argue it to indicate your position. I feel you are cop out when doing this. "what do you mean by ""alone" you'd say or, "the works they are talking about are not saved by works without grace".

There was heterogeny in the Catholic Church. You can insist otherwise, but you could at least admit the heterogency and insist that the Holy Spirit leads you to your faith. I insist that it leads me to mine. I honestly believe Catholics are misled by their "reasoning", when reasoning could lead one anywhere, and if they were to truly listen, they would hear.

Edited December 3, 2005 by jesussaves

[Aloysius]

it's very simple.

by grace you are saved THROUGH faith.

faith without works is dead.

therefore, you do works to keep your faith alive so grace can work through it.

the end.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Dec 2 2005, 11:12 PM']Clement of Rome: "We also, being called through God's will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves, neither through our own wisdom or understanding, or piety, or works which we have done in holiness or heart, but through faith" (Epistle to Corinthians).

Polycarp: "I know that through grace you are saved, not of works, but by the will of God, through Jesus Christ (Epistle of Philippians).

Cyprian: "If Abraham believed in God and it was imputed to him for righteousness, then each one, who believes in God and lives by faith, is found to be a righteous person."

Athanasius: "Not by these (i.e. human efforts) but by faith, a man is justified as was Abraham."

Basil: "This is the true and perfect glorying in God, when a man is not lifted up on account of his own righteousness, but has known himself to be wanting in true righteousness and to be justified by faith alone in Christ."

Origen: "Through faith, without the works of the law, the dying thief was justified, because...the Lord inquired not what he had previously wrought, nor yet waited for his performance of some work after he should have believe; but...he took him unto himself for a companion, justified through his confession alone."

Jerome: "When an ungodly man is converted, God justified him through faith alone, not on account of good works which he possessed not."

Augustine: "Grace is give to you, not wages paid to you...it is called grace because it is given gratuitously. By no precedent merits did you buy what you have received. The sinner therefore received this grace first, that his sins should be forgiven him...good works follow after a justified person; they do not go before in order that he may be justified...good works, following after justification, show what a man has received."

Anselm: "Do you believe that you cannot be saved but by the death of Christ? Go, then, and ...put all your confidence in this death alone. If God shall say to you, "You are a sinner", say to him, "I place the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between me and my sin.""

Bernard of Clairvaux: "Shall not all our righteousness turn out to be mere unrighteousness and deficiency? What, then, shall it be concerning our sins, when not even our righteousness can answer for itself? Wherefore...let us flee, with all humility to Mercy which alone can save our souls...whoever hungers and thirsts after righteousness, let him believe in thee, who "justified the ungodly"; and thus, being justified by faith alone, he shall have peace with God."
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It's a two part thing: faith [b]and[/b] works.
[quote][b]St. Ignatius of Antioch, student of St. John the Apostle and ordained Bishop by St. Peter the Apostle[/b]
"Be pleasing to him whose soldiers you are, and whose pay you receive. May none of you be found to be a deserter. Let your baptism be your armament, your faith your helmet, your love your spear, your endurance your full suit of armor. Let your works be as your deposited withholdings, so that you may receive the back-pay which has accrued to you" (Letter to Polycarp 6:2 [A.D. 110]).[/quote]
You are on the right track with the Fathers. Keep reading them and discover what they believed.

[jezic]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 28 2005, 11:05 PM']-According to protestants, faith alone gets you to heaven
But faith and works sends you to hell?-

Properly understood, yes. I want to reiterate one more time to be sure.

Faith in your own works is what gets you to hell, even be they based on the sublte, yet damnable heresy of unmerited grace.

Faith in the completely unmerited atonement is what gets you heaven. The works flow out of appreciation of your salvation, but have no bearing on it.

To hold onto the former is stubborness and a rejection to the Holy Spirit. Please pray strongly that you may realize the peace and salvation of the latter.

I have a feeling this thread is coming to a conclusion. But I am willing to dialouge on any issues with which you are stuggling. Please start a new dialouge, and I will give you an honest answer to the best of my ability based on the bible and the Holy Spirit.
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question .....

what about God's gift of Heaven here?

We never merit eternal life on our own .....

why does God seem to disappear in your explanation?

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Dec 3 2005, 06:09 PM']My initial impressions of the Catholic Church were correct. You are justified through graced works.
[/quote]
Where have we said that we are justified by (graced) works? Please show me where we have said this.

[quote]Remember, grace comes from something. From us it's faith; if you want to say we merited the grace through our faith so be it. Regardless, what is the requirement for you to receive the grace, is it faith and graced works or not? [/quote]Umm...is grace not a free gift from God? So you are saying that God owe's you something because of your faith? Is that you are saying? That you are entitled the infinite, all powerful-being, to give you something? You shall see in a moment our position as I have stated earlier on this same page I believe.

[quote]I will agree with you that works are necessary. They do not, however, justify. You must have them, but the faith alone is what justifies.[/quote]Where have we said that works justify? Show me. Would you please read canon 9? It says that one must be prepared and moved by his own will. It does not say that works justify, you are reading in your own conjecture. Works is not even mentioned there. What is mentioned is the necessity of the disposition of the person. It is Christ that justifies us, we do not justify ourselves by faith.

Aloysius I showed him why works is needed, but he ignored it when I said:[quote]Jusitification is by faith.
Faith is always accompanied by works.
Without works faith is dead (James2:ff...) It is not genuine.
So if faith is dependent on works, would justification not also be?
[/quote] You and I said the same thing and he says that they are necessary but will not say how. He has yet to show us that we say they justify us. What is the requirment? As I said and Al said: faith, but that does not mean that works are not needed. Which you have agreed to. We have not said that we are justified by them.

Read canon IX again. It says that preperation and motivation are required (as you say works are necessary) but it does not say that they justify.

[quote]You can argue it to indicate your position. I feel you are cop out when doing this. "what do you mean by ""alone"[/quote]So does this mean that you cannot find a biblical quote to say that we are saved sola fide?

As Al and I have both said: We are justified by faith. Faith is dead without works, so works are necessary. This does not mean that we think works justify us (graced or ungraced. As I said, good works are a cooperation with grace), but that we recongize that works are necessary for faith.

Unless you would like to contradict that the only thing that counts is faith acting through love. So is it faith alone? Or is it faith acting through love that saves you?

Edited December 4, 2005 by Paphnutius

[The Joey-O]

Why is this thread so long? You/'d think this'd be easier...

[rkwright]

I think it can be summed as...

you belive this..
no..
yes...
no..
yes..

on and on for 6 pages