salvation

[jesussaves]

[quote]"For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the GIFT of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." (Eph 2:8,9) [/quote]

I am sorry to shake your website with the truth, but the Roman Church's teachings are lies. Truth is what you need. Please repent unto the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:20

[Myles Domini]

[quote]And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and [b]if I have all faith[/b], so as to remove mountains, [b]but have not love, I am nothing[/b].--1 Corinthians 13:2[/quote]

[quote]For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, [b]but faith working through love[/b]--Galatians 5:6[/quote]

[quote]Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my prescence but much more in my absence, [b]work out your won salvation with fear and trembling[/b]--Philipians 2:12[/quote]

Beware of a slanted exegesis of St Paul's soteriology by focussing too much on one text. St Paul wrote multiple letters to multiple different communities and in each he stressed what he felt was important for their situation. Interpreting the Pauline epistles in light of one another rather than stressing the contents of one at the expense of another will give you more clarity on St Paul's understanding of salvation.

I recommend you read [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html"]The Joint Declaration on the doctrine of Justification by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church[/url]

INXC
Myles

[jesussaves]

"Man is justified by faith alone, but faith is never alone"
-Martin Luther

When James says, "You see then how that by works a man is justified," he simply means that his works show that he is genuine. He also insists that a man is not justified "by faith only" because the 'faith' that is alone is dead. Profession of faith is not enough. Mere mental assent to the Gospel truths is not enough. One must have living faith, and that is manifest by good works. His good works declares that he and his faith are genuine.
"Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness"
-James 2

[Era Might]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 26 2005, 04:09 PM']I am sorry to shake your website with the truth, but the Roman Church's teachings are lies. Truth is what you need. Please repent unto the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins.
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[/quote]

No worries. You haven't shaken the website.

Welcome to the phorum though.

Edited November 26, 2005 by Era Might

[homeschoolmom]

:bugeyes: Well this changes everything...

[Paphnutius]

[quote]5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "[b]will give to each person according to what he has done[/b]."[a] 7To those who by persistence in [b]doing good [/b]seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.[/quote]

Romans 2:5-8...the emphasis is mine. Just a thought to chew on.

[Jaime]

I prefer my faith stirred not shaken


Like a martini!

[MC Just]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Nov 26 2005, 05:32 PM']I prefer my faith stirred not shaken
Like a martini!
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that is great. haha

[MC Just]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Nov 26 2005, 04:16 PM']Romans 2:5-8...the emphasis is mine. Just a thought to chew on.
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Most Exxcellent. Does that not describe a Catholic?

[MC Just]

Good Works in Sanctifying Grace are Necessary for Salvation

Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isa. 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezek. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Hos. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, Sir. 16:12,14 - The 2,000 year-old Catholic position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (cf. Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works. Many Protestants, on the other hand, believe that one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior to be saved, and good works are not necessary (they just flow from those already saved). But these verses, and many others, teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved.

Sir. 35:19; Luke 23:41; John 3:19-21, Rom. 8:13, 2 Tim 4:14, Titus 3:8,14, Rev. 22:12 - these verses also teach us that we all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the "saved" and the "unsaved."

1 Cor. 3:15 - if works are unnecessary for salvation as many Protestants believe, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works?

Matt. 7:1-3 - we are not judged just by faith, but actually how we judge others, and we get what we have given. Hence, we are judged according to how we responded to God's grace during our lives.

Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. If this is true, then how can Protestants believe in the erroneous teaching of "Once saved, always saved?" If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.

Matt. 16:27 – Jesus says He will repay every man for what he has done (works).

Matt. 25:31-46 - Jesus' teaching on the separation of the sheep from the goats is based on the works that were done during their lives, not just on their acceptance of Christ as Savior. In fact, this teaching even demonstrates that those who are ultimately saved do not necessarily have to know Christ. Also, we don’t accept Christ; He accepts us. God first makes the decision to accept us before we could ever accept Him.

Matt. 25:40,45 - Jesus says "Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did it to Me." We are judged and our eternal destiny is determined in accordance with our works.

Mark 10:21 - Jesus says sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. This means that our salvation depends upon our works.

Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act according to the Lord's will. We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know.

Luke 14:14 – Jesus says we are repaid for the works we have done at the resurrection of the just. Our works lead to salvation.

Luke 23:41 - some Protestants argue that Jesus gave salvation to the good thief even though the thief did not do any good works. However, the good thief did in fact do a good work, which was rebuking the bad thief when he and others were reviling Jesus. This was a "work" which justified the good thief before Jesus and gained His favor. Moreover, we don't know if the good thief asked God for forgiveness, did works of penance and charity and was reconciled to God before he was crucified.

Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God's grace.

2 Cor. 5:10 - at the judgment Seat of Christ, we are judged according to what we have done in the body, not how much faith we had.

2 Cor. 9:6 – Paul says that he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully, in connection with God’s judgment.

2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation.

Gal. 6:7-9 – whatever a man sows, he will reap. Paul warns the Galatians not to grow weary in doing good works, for in due season they will reap (the rewards of eternal life).

Eph. 6:8 – whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same again from the Lord.

Col. 3:24-25 - we will receive due payment according to what we have done. Even so, Catholics recognize that such payment is a free unmerited gift from God borne from His boundless mercy.

1 Tim. 6:18-19 – the rich are to be rich in good deeds so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed, that is, eternal life.

2 Tim. 4:14 – Alexander the coppersmith did Paul great harm, and Paul says the Lord will requite him for his deeds.

Heb. 6:10 - God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for His sake. God rewards our works on earth and in heaven.

Heb. 12:14 – without holiness, no one will see the Lord. Holiness requires works of self-denial and charity, and does not come about simply by a profession of faith.

1 Peter 1:17 - God judges us impartially according to our deeds. We participate in applying the grace Jesus won for us at Calvary in our daily lives.

Rev. 2:5 - Jesus tells the Ephesians they have fallen from love they used to have, and orders them to do good works. He is not satisfied with their faith alone. They need to do more than accept Him as personal Lord and Savior.

Rev. 2:10 – Jesus tells the church in Smyrna to be faithful unto death, and He will give them the crown of life. This is the faith of obedience to His commandments.

Rev. 2:19 - Jesus judges the works of the Thyatirans, and despises their tolerance of Jezebel, calling them to repentance.

Rev. 2:23 - Jesus tells us He will give to each of us as our works deserve. He crowns His own gifts by rewarding our good works.

Rev. 2:26 - Jesus says he who conquers and keeps my works until the end will be rewarded in heaven. Jesus thus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are "once saved, always saved."

Rev. 3:2-5,8,15 – Jesus is judging our works from heaven, and these works bear upon our eternal salvation. If we conquer sin through faith and works, He will not blot our names out of the book of life. This means that works bear upon our salvation. Our “works” do not just deal with level of reward we will receive, but whether we will in fact be saved.

Rev. 3:15 – Jesus says, “I know your works, you are neither cold nor hot. Because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth.” Jesus is condemning indifferentism, which is often based on our works.

Rev. 14:13 - we are judged by the Lord by our works – “for their deeds follow them!” Our faith during our life is completed and judged by our works.

Rev. 20:12 – “the dead are judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.”

Rev. 22:12 – Jesus says, “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay everyone for what he has done.”

Sirach 16:12,14 – we are judged according to our deeds, and will receive in accordance with our deeds.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

did anyone like my touch? i thought it was funny that the scripture was adressed to a vain man and i also adressed the scripture to a vain man.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 26 2005, 03:45 PM']"Man is justified by faith alone, but faith is never alone"
          -Martin Luther

When James says, "You see then how that by works a man is justified," he simply means that his works show that he is genuine. He also insists that a man is not justified "by faith only" because the 'faith' that is alone is dead. Profession of faith is not enough. Mere mental assent to the Gospel truths is not enough. One must have living faith, and that is manifest by good works. His good works declares that he and his faith are genuine.
"Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness"
          -James 2
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You're trying to convert us with Luther? Novel approach bud.

Unfortunately, the whole faith-works thing has been obfuscated beyond belief. Think of your Faith as a tree. If your tree bears no fruit then what good is it? In fact, there is an episode in the Bible where Jesus smites a fig tree, if I recall...which should say something about the necessity of bearing good fruit.

we're not that dissimilar. Listen to Myles...

[photosynthesis]

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'" (Matt 7:21)

It's all about doing the will of the Father. Faith isn't enough, you have to OBEY in order to be saved.

[djc08]

why does every other conversation I have religion with a protestant have to be about this. I give them the proof that has already been mentioned above and all I get is shaking of the head and they will never believe. I hate it when people are to stubborn to admit they are wrong.