Europe's 'baby bust' signals major change

[photosynthesis]

having a big family doesn't necessarily ensure that all of the kids will grow up to embrace the faith + morals of the parents. There are so many other factors to consider. Both sets of my grandparents had 7 kids, so that's 14. only 1 is still a practicing Catholic. and my parents aren't Catholic. Having lots of children is worthy and admirable, but it doesn't necessarily mean your kids will be Catholic and that the world will be more Christian because of it.

[Dreamweaver]

I would hate to see how family reunions will be as people have lower and lower birthrates. There will be brothers or sisters to play with, no cousins, an aunt or uncle if they're lucky....

[Socrates]

[quote name='Balthazor' date='Nov 26 2005, 07:37 PM']Although.... Hitler and the Nazi party did give medals out to any mother that had more than 4 childeren to help populate and sustain the aryan race. Hmm...  maybe if we gave out medals....
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If you're trying to imply that concern about Europe's "birth-dearth" is Nazi-like or racist, you're wrong and in bad taste.

This will create very real economic and social problems for many European countries.
And it is creating problems outside of Europe, too. Japan is already suffering from this.
This is a real problem, and has nothing to do with racism.

It is caused largely by materialism and by a system in which children are seen as a burden, rather than a benefit.

[Socrates]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Nov 26 2005, 07:58 PM']having a big family doesn't necessarily ensure that all of the kids will grow up to embrace the faith + morals of the parents.  There are so many other factors to consider.  Both sets of my grandparents had 7 kids, so that's 14.  only 1 is still a practicing Catholic.  and my parents aren't Catholic.  Having lots of children is worthy and admirable, but it doesn't necessarily mean your kids will be Catholic and that the world will be more Christian because of it.
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Raising them in a positive Catholic environment also helps. (And it can be done - it also helps if there is a strong Catholic communithy of like-minded families.)
Catholic mothers' and fathers' duties don't end with making babies.

Edited November 27, 2005 by Socrates

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Nov 26 2005, 08:11 PM']Raising them in a positive Catholic environment also helps.  (And it can be done - it also helps if there is a strong Catholic communithy of like-minded families.)
Catholic mothers' and fathers' duties don't end with making babies.
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positive catholic environements? where do you find those?

[Myles Domini]

[quote]positive catholic environements? where do you find those?[/quote]

My dear, you make one

[Socrates]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Nov 26 2005, 08:15 PM']positive catholic environements?  where do you find those?
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Near Front Royal, VA.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Myles' date='Nov 26 2005, 08:16 PM']My dear, you make one 
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you need other catholics to do that

[avemaria40]

find a very orthodox parish to go to, use your words and example to make a Catholic enviornment, and encourage your kids to get involved in church and pray and teach them their faith constantly, that's how you can either find or make a Catholic enviornment

Edited November 27, 2005 by avemaria40

[photosynthesis]

you can't just make an environment though... like, "hey, secular people!!! i have decided that we are going to be Catholic now." i mean, unless you're going to colonize a group of people with brute force, which isn't something I could see myself doing

if you're going to do the "find an orthodox parish" thing, then you're not creating Catholic community, you're just joining a community that already exists.

[Socrates]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Nov 27 2005, 12:52 PM']you can't just make an environment though...  like, "hey, secular people!!!  i have decided that we are going to be Catholic now."  i mean, unless you're going to colonize a group of people with brute force, which isn't something I could see myself doing

if you're going to do the "find an orthodox parish" thing, then you're not creating Catholic community, you're just joining a community that already exists.
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I think you miss the point.
Sometimes we need to be proactive.

People can and do "create Catholic environments." Don't tell me it can't be done. I've seen it. They have to start somewhere. It all begins with good Catholics getting together with other good Catholics. ("Where two or three are gathered in My Name . . ")
Join or start good Catholic schools.
Start groups in your parish.
Form Catholic home-school groups.

Many things start small. Creating Catholic community does not necessarily mean founding a "Chester-Belloc" style "Catholic City" or anything grandiose.
Everything must begin somewhere. And other good Catholics do exist - you just have to seriously look around. Creating a Catholic environment can begin with your own family, or a small group of friends.

Taking a despairing or apathetic attitude will get nothing accomplished, and will make gloom-and-doom predictions about the Faith self-fulfiulling prophesies.

[argent_paladin]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Nov 27 2005, 12:52 PM']you can't just make an environment though...  like, "hey, secular people!!!  i have decided that we are going to be Catholic now."  i mean, unless you're going to colonize a group of people with brute force, which isn't something I could see myself doing

if you're going to do the "find an orthodox parish" thing, then you're not creating Catholic community, you're just joining a community that already exists.
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By having a large Catholic family, you *are* making an environment. You literally are creating a commuity. The family is the fundamental community of all communities. That is why it is especially important to have as many children as God calls you to have and raise them in the faith.

And the family reunion thing.... Italy, Spain and China are already facing that. With a one child policy, or a 1 person fertility rate, a child will have no brothers or sisters, no aunts or uncles, no cousins, etc. The only relatives the person would have would be his parents and grand parents (of course, now a days people are having children later, so he might not have grandparents either).

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='Nov 27 2005, 04:36 PM']By having a large Catholic family, you *are* making an environment. You literally are creating a commuity. The family is the fundamental community of all communities. That is why it is especially important to have as many children as God calls you to have and raise them in the faith.

And the family reunion thing.... Italy, Spain and China are already facing that. With a one child policy, or a 1 person fertility rate, a child will have no brothers or sisters, no aunts or uncles, no cousins, etc. The only relatives the person would have would be his parents and grand parents (of course, now a days people are having children later, so he might not have grandparents either).
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I heard from those in Spain about this stuff happening--its so sad!

[jezic]

I did see somewhere though that even without the tens of millions of abortions in Europe in the past 20 or so years, the birthrate is still way lower than what it needs to be to replace those that are dieing (which points to widespread contraception or maybe more widespread homosexuality in certain limited cases)

it is sad though, how many millions are killed before they even get to the womb .....

[Balthazor]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Nov 26 2005, 08:07 PM']If you're trying to imply that concern about Europe's "birth-dearth" is Nazi-like or racist, you're wrong and in bad taste.

This will create very real economic and social problems for many European countries.
And it is creating problems outside of Europe, too.  Japan is already suffering from this. 
This is a real problem, and has nothing to do with racism.

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No actually I am just trying to warn you about "the other side of the topic"
I can't help but feel that every time that I hear about Europe's problems with population here,that instead of coming across as concerned Christians that we as Catholics sometimes instead come off with a smug "I told you so" attitude. It bothers me that instead of being concerned for the sake of love and charity that we are instead concerned because we see it as losing Power or even happy at their down fall because of their use of birth control.
It is not exactly Christian to be happy at another person's misfortune.. even if they did cause it themselves.
Not only that but it seems to me that it is all to slippery of a slope for any and all of us to succumb using Children as tools by which to grow political power in the Church. I used the Nazi's as an example... perhaps it was a rather strong example but I beleive it made a strong point. Children as little treasures each of them to be loved and cherished, not to be used for the sole purpose of growing political power.