photosynthesis Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 i was talking to my mom once, after the pastor at St. Patrick's Cathedral in NYC got a little too friendly with his secretary. She was outraged, and she said that if Catholics are to hold themselves to a higher moral standard, then leaders who are caught in these situations should be treated as transgressors. She asked me why they didn't publicly excommunicate the pastor for what he did. I didn't really know what to tell her. As i understand it, excommunication isn't always a public thing. Whenever a person commits a mortal sin, aren't they excommunicating themself? why aren't prominent priests caught violating their vows of celibacy (which includes sexual misconduct and sexual abuse) excommuncated for what they have done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP2Iloveyou Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 Excommunication is a canonical penalty, but you are right to say that a person does excommunicate himself. A mortal sin is not grounds for excommunication, however. An excommunicated person (I think) cannot even receive the Sacrament of Confession without having his excommunication lifted. Clearly, a person who is simply in a state of mortal sin is not only permitted to seek out Confession, but encouraged. I am not a Canon Lawyer, so I am merely speculating here, but it seems to me that the sin this man is guily of is not grounds for excommunication. Clergy are bound by the same rules as laymen. To my knowledge, the crimes of procuring or helping someone to procure an abortion and attacking the Pope are grounds for a latae sententiae excommunication. Also, uniting oneself with groups who are opposed to the teachings of the Church are grounds for excommunication. Among these are groups like Call to Action, Voice of the Faithful, Catholics for a Free Choice, and the Masons among others. The excommunications of members of these groups by Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz made headlines about ten years ago. Hope that helps. Again, someone with more background knowlege in this area, please correct anything I have erroneously stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photosynthesis Posted November 23, 2005 Author Share Posted November 23, 2005 what about committing acts of homosexuality, or sexual abuse, or rape, or murder? could a person be excommunicated for that? and i thought excommunication just meant that you were barred from communion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 [quote name='JP2Iloveyou' date='Nov 22 2005, 07:10 PM']Clergy are bound by the same rules as laymen. [/quote] I would be careful with that. In moral theology, a person's state (cleric, lay, religious, etc...) is one of the 4 circumstances taken into consideration. I would have to review because I do no think that a circumstance can change the species of a sin, but it does the "degree" within a species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photosynthesis Posted November 23, 2005 Author Share Posted November 23, 2005 [quote name='Paphnutius' date='Nov 22 2005, 08:08 PM']I would be careful with that. In moral theology, a person's state (cleric, lay, religious, etc...) is one of the 4 circumstances taken into consideration. I would have to review because I do no think that a circumstance can change the species of a sin, but it does the "degree" within a species. [right][snapback]798142[/snapback][/right] [/quote] wouldn't that just mean that priests and religious are held to an even higher standard of morality than laypeople? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP2Iloveyou Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 Well, as a good Dominican would always say, "Yes and no." Never deny, seldom affirm, always qualify. A clergyman is bound to a higher moral standard because usually he will have studied more philosophy and theology and thus is more culpable for breaking one of the Commandments. However, I do not think that it is accurate to insinuate that something could be a mortal sin for a member of the clergy and not a mortal sin for Joe Catholic, aside from what I said above about the reduced invincible ignorance of the deacon/priest/bishop uping the anti so to speak of his culpability. [quote]EXCOMMUNICATION: A severe ecclesiastical penalty, resulting from grave crimes against the Catholic religion, imposed by ecclesiastical authority or incurred as a direct result of the commission of an offense. Excommunication excludes the offender from taking part in the Eucharist or other sacraments and from the exercise of any ecclesiastical office, ministry, or function (1463).[/quote] [quote]1466 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them.68 In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.69[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photosynthesis Posted November 23, 2005 Author Share Posted November 23, 2005 so excommunications are only for people who sin against faith, as opposed to charity or other virtues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 [quote name='JP2Iloveyou' date='Nov 22 2005, 08:40 PM'] However, I do not think that it is accurate to insinuate that something could be a mortal sin for a member of the clergy and not a mortal sin for Joe Catholic, aside from what I said above about the reduced invincible ignorance of the deacon/priest/bishop uping the anti so to speak of his culpability. [/quote] That is why I said that I do not think that it changes the species of the sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP2Iloveyou Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 you'll have to ask a moral theologian or a canon lawyer. I really am not qualified to discuss this with you. My gut instinct would be no though, because it seems an abortion is a sin against charity. Abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photosynthesis Posted November 23, 2005 Author Share Posted November 23, 2005 what are the different kinds of excommunications? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatty07 Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 (edited) JP2Iloveyou is exactly right about excommunication barring one from the sacrament of Penance...although a priest may override this in immediate danger of death. There's three different usages of "excommunication" and they've all come up here. First, one excommunicates oneself by cutting off the bond to the Body of Christ...whether the Church formally recognizes that or not. Second, excommunication is occasionally used to mean exclusion from communion...but I think that's irregular and confusing. Third and most common, excommunication is a canonical penalty imposed by official decree, after a required warning, by a competent ecclesial authority. This is the more precise way to use the word. Excommunication traditionally has two purposes. The first is to avoid scandal - e.g., the confusion caused by Catholic members of Planned Parenthood or something like that. The second purpose is for the conversion of the excommunicated. The Church, desparately concerned for the lost sheep, has this last effort to try to point out the seriousness of the situation. Hope that helps a little... (edited for grammar) Edited November 23, 2005 by beatty07 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 i excommunicated myself..... techniquley i still am in schism and excommunicated i have to go to confession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Just Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 I'd like to see more exxcomunications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photosynthesis Posted November 24, 2005 Author Share Posted November 24, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Nov 23 2005, 01:22 PM']i excommunicated myself..... techniquley i still am in schism and excommunicated i have to go to confession. [right][snapback]798877[/snapback][/right] [/quote] good idea!!! doesn't st. alphonsus have daily confession? [quote name='MC Just' date='Nov 23 2005, 07:00 PM']I'd like to see more exxcomunications. [right][snapback]799265[/snapback][/right] [/quote] bring 'em on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 yes it does but i can't get downtown. im 14 and can't drive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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