Marriage

[daugher-of-Mary]

[quote]...is what bwings us togethah today....[/quote]

LOL. That is EXACTLY what I was thinking when I typed the title of this thread. I wasn't sure anybody else would understand what I was talking about if I put that as the subtitle though! I'm glad you do! :

[MC IMaGiNaZUN]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' date='Nov 22 2005, 09:44 AM'][i]...is what bwings us togethah today[/i]....
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oh yeah, Princess Bride now i remember

[ofpheritup]

Possible questions regarding Marriage.

What do you want from it?
What do you have to "give" it?
Why "even" get Married?
Is Marriage your vocation" How do you know?
What qualities are you looking for in a spouse?
Where is a good place to meet people like yourself?
Do you have the right to "change" your spouse?

That's all for now. It's a good start.

Edited November 25, 2005 by ofpheritup

[franciscanheart]

there are just as many questions to pray about in discerning marriage as there are in discerning religious life. i embrace all questions... they only help me grow and to understand God's will for my life. i know that at one point i was very intimidated by these questions. i almost felt like they were there to keep me from being a sister or to keep me from being married... but they are there to challenge and define.

i heart discernment.

[let_go_let_God]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' date='Nov 22 2005, 09:44 AM'][i]...is what bwings us togethah today[/i]....
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I saw this and I burst out laughing.

Anyway, I've looked on here for a while for a bit of vocational help for marrage, and the vocation station definately needed this. I firmly believe that I am called to the married life. My deacon taught us that the union between a husband and wife is a physical reminder of the union between Christ and his bride, the Church.

Ironically this was the most profound thing I remember about my Confirmation classes, but we won't go there.

I would love to hear more about living the vocation of marrage.

God bless-
LGLG

[Totus Tuus]

It's so awesome how all the vocations compliment one another.

[Didacus]

I would be nothing if it was not for my marriage and children; no matter the success I would have anywhere else.

My wife and I was discussing a few days ago and we agreed that our only purpose in life is to raise our children in a manner pleasing to the Lord. Nothing else matters in our existence, as much as that, it is our 'job' given to us by God Himself.

My wife had three sesections, and due to complications had her uterus removed. We where very sad that we could only have three children betweeen the two of us, but just a few days ago we started talking about adoption! We'll see, we'll see.

[Didacus]

And on another note, I personally believe that other sacraments are not 'better' nor more 'important', but I must admit I give them (sisters, borthers and fathers) a special respect becasue they are the 'experts' towards salvation.

Is a king truly more important than his people? Of course not, a true king should serve his people. Yet a true king will have special respects that commoners of his kingdom do not receive, and rightly so. That is a bit how i see the other sacraments, they contain a certain respect that is not necessarily given to married people and I think this is appropriate.

[ofpheritup]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Nov 25 2005, 05:55 PM']And on another note, I personally believe that other sacraments are not 'better' nor more 'important', but I must admit I give them (sisters, borthers and fathers) a special respect becasue they are the 'experts' towards salvation..
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I disagree. They aren't "experts" any more than you or I.
They are people who have chosen a particular way to follow Jesus.
But that doesn't make them "experts."

While I believe that Priests do have an "UP" being that the are priests, still they are human. So how does the "expert" status apply?

This is the belief that I was raised with. And it isn't true. Religious can and have gone to hell "as easily" as lay people. I don't automatically give respect because of someone's lifestyle. Respect has to be earned.

There is a Sister I know of who has the hair and the nails done monthly. Wears earings and three gold chains. The watch is solid gold. And the apartment is CRAMMED with knick-knacks. Oh yes, and makeup. Why?
Jesus knows what she looks like. Who is she dressing for?

Nope, I don't think so. Not when I have met Married couples who REEK (sorry that is the best word to get my point across) Jesus. One of the couples I have in mind were my Grandparents.

ps. My watch came from WalMart and cost $21.00 and I don't wear makeup.

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='ofpheritup' date='Nov 25 2005, 06:53 PM']I disagree. They aren't "experts" any more than you or I.
They are people who have chosen a particular way to follow Jesus.
But that doesn't make them "experts."

While I believe that Priests do have an "UP" being that the are priests, still they are human.  So how does the "expert" status apply?

This is the belief that I was raised with. And it isn't true.  Religious can and have gone to hell "as easily" as lay people.  I don't automatically give respect because of someone's lifestyle. Respect has to be earned.

There is a Sister I know of who has the hair and the nails  done monthly. Wears earings and  three gold chains.  The watch is solid gold. And the apartment is CRAMMED  with knick-knacks.  Oh yes, and makeup. Why?
Jesus knows what she looks like. Who is she dressing for?

Nope, I don't think so.  Not when I have met Married couples who REEK (sorry that is the best word to get my point across) Jesus.  One of the couples I have in mind were my Grandparents.

ps.  My watch came from WalMart and cost $21.00  and I don't wear makeup.
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I think that this is evidence of a misunderstanding of what should actually be being discussed here.

The religious vocation [i]is[/i] a higher vocation than either the married or the single vocation, precisely because the latter are perfect expressions of the natural order (that is, how God made us in creation) while religious life is an expression of the [i]super[/i]natural order (that is, how we will be in the New Creation).

The fact that Holy Orders confers upon its recipient the highest possible vocation does not mean that the person in question is going to be a [i]better[/i] person, it simply means that this person has a more supernatural calling by God.

Objectively, the religious vocation is "better" - this does not mean that all of the religious people are "better." Nor does it mean that everyone should become a religious - they shouldn't - it is a privelaged calling, not a right.

What people need to understand is that acknowledging the religious life as objectively a higher calling does not need to lessen the respect and importance given to the other vocations: [i]every[/i] vocation is a personal calling from God, and so is something that demands to be lived out by each and every one of us. Moreover, because we are talking about a demand of love, rather than a demand of obligation, no vocation will "lord over" the others, even if it is objectively greater.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[Norseman82]

There are some very troubling attitudes I've found among Catholics about marriage - some due to creeping Calvinistic influences, some due to suburban snotty cliquishness, some due to the lesbo-feminazi heresy that was born in the advent of the "contraception culture" of the 1960s and 1970s. I will debunk several of them here from scripture, official church teaching, and from personal stories I've been told.

1) First, I AM A CATHOLIC, NOT A CALVINIST. I don't believe in a micromanaging God; He gave me free will. See Sirach 15:11-20. Therefore, I'm getting a little tired of being second-guessed for wanting to get married or being told that I need to wait for a girl that God specially prepared for me. What [i]official[/i] evidence does anyone have that God chooses who our spouses are or if we will even get married (I'm not talking about knowing who we will eventually marry or if we will get married). Such manipulation is dangerous in two senses:

a) Using religion to micromanage and manipulate, or to think you have some private line to God as far as to what He wants for everyone's lives, is a hallmark of [i]religious cults[/i], not the true Church;
b) Constantly second-guessing can lead to a loss of confidence and inability to make a decision and paranoia and who knows what other mental problems. I don't know if that's acceptable for females, but for MALES that can be deadly.

Besides, as someone once posted here, as long as a person is not sinning or going against Church policy, WHO IS ANYONE TO QUESTON WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE FOLLOWING GOD'S WILL????

Also, CCC 2230: "When they become adults, children have the right and duty to [i]choose their profession and state of life[/i]. They should assume their new responsibilites within a trusting relationship with their parents, willingly asking and receiving their advice and counsel. Parents should be careful not to exert pressure on their chidlren either in the choice of a profession or in that of a spouse". Get it? Our state of life and who we marry is LEFT TO OUR CHOICE. This comes straight from the Cathechism! If anyone has a problem with that, it is the Church they have a problem with, not me.

2) YOU NEED TO BE CALLED TO MARRIAGE??? If we start to adopt a policy that only certain people are called to be married, that leads to elitism. One of my friends calls it "marriage Jansenism". Besides, the Cathechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 1603 states that "The vocation of marriage is written in the very nature of man and woman as they came from the hand of the Creator". Marriage is part of human nature, and people who try to restrict it are messing with human nature. If you disagree with this, you are not disagree with me but with the Church, whether out of lack of knowledge or outright heresy.

3) THE WHOLE "THAT IS NOT A VALID REASON TO GET MARRIED" CONROVERSY (see previous posts in this thread). Excuse me, but who appointed anyone the official arbitrer of what is not a good reason to get married? It was said that "loneliness" or "fear of dying alone" is not a reason to get married. BALONEY!!!!!! IT MOST CERTAINLY IS!!!!! Here are the reasons:

a) I wonder how many people who say such hurtful things themselves have families and are in no danger of dying alone? They should put themselves in the other person's shoes and learn what life is like on the other side of the tracks, otherwise they are being hypocritical. Besides, who are they to impose the burden of loneliness and dying alone on another person who is eligible to marry in the Church? Laying heavy burdens on people and not lifting a finger to carry them is a characteristic not of a Christian, but of a pharisee (Mt. 23:3-4). Remember what Christ said about pharisees? Read the rest of Matthew 23. He called them "frauds" (v. 15), "blind guides" (v.24), "whitewashed tombs" (v. 27), "vipers nests" and "brood of serpents" (v. 33).

b) I remember a seminarian stating that the hard part about celibacy is not the physical part, but projecting yourself into your 40s and 50s and seeing other people in your age group with children and grandchildren. So if loneliness and lack of family is something to consider when discerning a vocation to a religious state of life (and whether or not to be a non-religious single, since both have to practice celibacy) , [i]then why would anyone deny it as a factor in wantng to get married[/i]???? Such illogic astounds me!!!!!!! Yes, Paul said that the unmarried can serve the Lord better (1 Cor. 7:32-35), but he also said that it is better to be married than to be on fire if one cannot exercise self-control (1 Cor. 7:8-9). Did not Christ Himself say that "not everyone is given to do so" regarding accepting the teaching of being better not to marry (Matthew 19:10-11)? Did he not refer to people who FREELY embrace celibacy (I'm paraphrasing here due differing translations of Matthew 19:12)? So if Christ and Paul acknowledge that not everyone can handle celibacy, then why can't people today realize that? It boggles my mind!!!

Now, I'm not saying that loneliness can lead to hasty decisions, but it is quite another thing to fault a person for taking steps to prep themselves for marriage because they don't want to be alone for the rest of their lives.

4) YOU'RE DESPERATE. While I agree that it can lead to hasty decisions, I need to ask the following:

a) What is the Christian response to someone in a desperate situation? Is it avoidance? Mocking? Or is it to meet their needs? See Acts 6:1-6.
b) Just as we cannot complain that a child's stomach is grumbling from hunger if we haven't fed him/her, I really wonder how much desperaton in other people is caused by us by our ignoring and rejecting them and whether it is really valid to complain about it????

[Norseman82]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Nov 25 2005, 07:27 PM']

The religious vocation [i]is[/i] a higher vocation than either the married or the single vocation, precisely because the latter are perfect expressions of the natural order (that is, how God made us in creation) while religious life is an expression of the [i]super[/i]natural order (that is, how we will be in the New Creation).

The fact that Holy Orders confers upon its recipient the highest possible vocation does not mean that the person in question is going to be a [i]better[/i] person, it simply means that this person has a more supernatural calling by God.

Objectively, the religious vocation is "better" - this does not mean that all of the religious people are "better." Nor does it mean that everyone should become a religious - they shouldn't - it is a privelaged calling, not a right.

What people need to understand is that acknowledging the religious life as objectively a higher calling does not need to lessen the respect and importance given to the other vocations: [i]every[/i] vocation is a personal calling from God, and so is something that demands to be lived out by each and every one of us. Moreover, because we are talking about a demand of love, rather than a demand of obligation, no vocation will "lord over" the others, even if it is objectively greater.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff
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Additionally, one reason it might be considered a "higher" calling is that it makes more demands of people, and not everyone can handle those demands.

[daugher-of-Mary]

Jeff,
Well spoken. A priest may be himself a very great sinner, but we must never forget that his soul is indelibly marked by the reception of Holy Orders, and that he is acting in persona Christi. St. John Vianney used to say that if he were to meet an angel and a priest, he would bow before the priest first. Likewise, a religious brother or sister has been chosen (despite their failings and sins) to begin their "heaven on earth." We see in them the union with Christ that will be Eternity for us...the Wedding Feast of the Lamb. These two vocations are, in that sense, "higher" because they give such a tremendous demonstration of God's Mercy..His power made perfect in weakness.
All that being said, the most "perfect" vocation and the surest path to holiness is whatever God is calling you to! If He calls you to marriage, then that is beautiful! He is asking you to form a reflection of the Trinity physically and spiritually. What a gift and Mystery!

[ofpheritup]

I still disagree but thanks for sharing.

[Lilllabettt]

Hmmm ... this discussion is really good ... people need to know, the best vocation for them, is the one God calls them to. That said, about which state in life is more perfect ... I think the Church has already spoken on the matter ... this is from the [i]IRL[/i]'s Vocation FAQ page:

Q. Is consecrated life a higher calling than marriage?
A. The Church teaches as dogma the objective superiority of consecrated virginity (or celibacy) over marriage. This dogma has its scriptural basis in Our Lord’s words, “And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life” (Mt. 19:29).

Q. Does this mean that I will automatically become a holier person in consecrated life?
A. No. The dogma mentioned above does not mean that those who are called to celibacy are in fact “superior” or holier than other people. Rather, one’s holiness is ultimately measured by one’s charity, not one’s state in life. (Pope John Paul II, Theology of the Body, 276–77.

Q. What has the Holy Father written about perfect chastity?
A. In his apostolic letter on consecrated life, Vita Consecrata, Pope John Paul II refers to the “objective superiority” of the consecrated life, which “mirrors Christ’s own way of life” when it comes forth to showing forth the Church’s holiness.