Celibacy

[dandy777]

I don't know if you have already discussed this issue or not. However, I wanted to discuss this with you to see what the majority thinks.

Do you agree with celibacy in catholic priesthood especially taking into consideration the fact that it wasn't always so and St. Peter himself was married?

[scardella]

[quote name='dandy777' date='Nov 16 2005, 10:55 AM']I don't know if you have already discussed this issue or not. However, I wanted to discuss this with you to see what the majority thinks.

Do you agree with celibacy in catholic priesthood especially taking into consideration the fact that it wasn't always so and St. Peter himself was married? 
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Heck yes! If nothing else, there's practical issues here.

My off-hand practical reasons for a celibate priesthood:
He can minister more effectively. If a parishoner needs last rites/sacrament of the sick/confession in an emergency, eg imminent death, he can drop everything and be there. He can devote all of his time to his ministry. He doesn't need to work another job to pay the bills. I think he can minister more effectively to women without a wife.

He doesn't have conflicts of interest. He won't be in a dilemma if the wife gets a promotion or moved to a different office, etc. He doesn't have to worry that the parish he is assigned to has a bad neighborhood or bad schools. His theoretical children don't have to deal with the "preacher's kid" stigma. His wife doesn't feel like she's competing w/ the parish for attention and love. He does not have to worry about wife or kids, missing their appointments, etc. He doesn't need to split his time between ministry and family. Imagine the consequences if members of his family have issues with other people in the parish. Imagine a person confessing to an adulterous relationship w/ the priest's wife...

There's also the whole "being married to the Church" and "being a more perfect imitation of Christ" theological stuff too.

[dandy777]

[quote name='scardella' date='Nov 16 2005, 07:20 PM']Heck yes!  If nothing else, there's practical issues here.

My off-hand practical reasons for a celibate priesthood:
He can minister more effectively.  If a parishoner needs last rites/sacrament of the sick/confession in an emergency, eg imminent death, he can drop everything and be there.  He can devote all of his time to his ministry.  He doesn't need to work another job to pay the bills.  I think he can minister more effectively to women without a wife.[/quote]

That is definitely true.

[quote name='scardella' date='Nov 16 2005, 07:20 PM']He doesn't have conflicts of interest.  He won't be in a dilemma if the wife gets a promotion or moved to a different office, etc.  He doesn't have to worry that the parish he is assigned to has [b]a bad neighborhood or bad schools.[/b]  His theoretical children don't have to deal with the "preacher's kid" stigma.  [b]His wife doesn't feel like she's competing w/ the parish for attention and love[/b].  He does not have to worry about wife or kids, missing their appointments, etc. He doesn't need to split his time between ministry and family.  Imagine the consequences if members of his family have issues with other people in the parish.  [b]Imagine a person confessing to an adulterous relationship w/ the priest's wife...[/b]
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[b]Point 1:[/b]
He should be dealing with bad neighbourhood and schools anyway, whether he is married or not. Afterall, he is committed to his community and should be the pastor of all.

[b]Point 2:[/b]
I guess any sensible man would chose a woman who is very understanding and supportive. Trouble does crop up at times but if the couple keeps God at the centre, everything will be fine. A woman competing with her husband's job or mission in life is a disastrouous wife whatever her husband's job is.

[b]Point 3:[/b]
First of all, Catholic don't usually confess to non-clerics. They could share experiences but not confess. Secondly, that's what trust is for. That is the basis of every relationship let alone this kind of relationship.

[quote name='scardella' date='Nov 16 2005, 07:20 PM']There's also the whole "being married to the Church" and "being a more perfect imitation of Christ" theological stuff too.
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Yes that is true.

I am not saying that I am against celibacy. On the other hand, I honour those who stick to it and are of a good example to people. Yet, I don't understand why it is obligatory and forced upon clergyman when Peter himself was married.

I believe it should be optional.

[Paphnutius]

Really quick thought...perhaps it is because Christ called for one to leave everything behind to follow Him. This would seem to include having a family. Let the dead bury the dead I suppose.

[dandy777]

Hmm... nice thought. It could be referring to that. However, I always thought that particular passage was referring to the fact that we should focus on God's will and plan for our lives. That we should not put anything else as a top priority in our lives but always give Him the place that He deserves in our lives: to be our Saviour and Lord.

[PadreSantiago]

I would say that the priests should not be celibate anymore.

[dandy777]

[quote name='PadreSantiago' date='Nov 16 2005, 09:34 PM']I would say that the priests should not be celibate anymore.
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But why do you think so? Is it just to "keep up with today's society"? Does it have to do with "sexual desires/supression" or because of the efficacy of "duty"?

[Myles Domini]

As opposed to having priests marry after their ordination theologically there is no reason why married men shouldnt be ordained. Lots of married men have been ordained within the Catholica just they are of the Eastern Catholic Churches or converted Anglican clerics. Citing St Peter as being married doesnt have much bearing on the situation because priestly celibacy is not a theological issue, however much people might write books on what does or doesnt more perfectly imitate Christ, if Rome snapped her fingers tommorow she could change the discipline immediately and anyone who denied her this power would be a heretic.

That being said the discipline has served holy mother Church well and their are many practical reasons for having celibacy as the norm for the priesthood some of which have already been listed. Another came out of the Synod in Rome from the mouth of His Eminence George Cardinal Pell who said an alteration in the discipline now would add to the widespread confusion within the 21st century Church.

Personally I approve of the idea of ordaining the 'viri probati'--those proven dedicated married men to the priesthood in places of extreme emergency and shortage of priests. However, I maintain that ordinations of this kind should be done only in cases of neccessity and that the default discipline of the Latin Church should remain unchanged. If Rome altered the discipline naturally it wouldnt concern me other than for the fact that I could imagine it causing widespread unrest. The only thing that would make me [i]wonder[/i] is if Rome attempted to allow already ordained priests to contract marriages. I've never heard of this being permitted anywhere in apostolic tradition either within the Latin Church or amongst the Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. This would be a breach with tradition and I'm quite sure it would be canonically illegal though I'd need some canonists to be back me up.

However, I'm pretty sure that whether or not Rome does choose to revert to the ancient discipline of allowing married men to be ordained she will not break with Tradition and allow men already ordained to marry. Thus I wont be loosing sleep over that one .

Pax Domini Vobiscum
Myles

[Nathan]

The Church didn't just pull the idea of priestly celibacy out of the air; like any Church teaching, there is a good reason for it, and a solid theology behind it. And it was, I must believe as a Catholic, guided by the Holy Spirit.

[Aloysius]

of course, many times scripture alludes to the fact that Peter left his wife to follow after Jesus. so while at one point he was married, the entire time of his ministry was a celibate time.

[Myles Domini]

Al thats questionable. There are ancient traditions that say that she went to Rome with him and died a martyr. Likewise Nathan I wouldnt be so quick to spring to that manner of answer. The Latin Church is not the whole Catholic Church. There has at all times been at least one part of the Catholic Church where married clergy was the norm e.g. the Maronites have never been out of communion with Rome. Our last Holy Father advised us to breathe with both lungs in the letter 'Light from the East'. Accordingly lets not make out that all sectors of the Catholic Church past or present have had a celibate priesthood. Moreover, given Vatican II and JP2's calls for the Eastern Catholics to rediscover their own traditions lets not think it likely that the Eastern Catholics will ever have an all celibate priesthood. The discipline of celibacy is unique to the Latin Church and it is a good discipline BUT it is only a discipline.

[scardella]

[quote name='dandy777' date='Nov 16 2005, 11:54 AM']That is definitely true.
[b]Point 1:[/b]
He should be dealing with bad neighbourhood and schools anyway, whether he is married or not.  Afterall, he is committed to his community and should be the pastor of all.[/quote]

The natural instinct of being a father is to provide the best possible upbringing for his children. Good schools and good neighborhoods provide a good environment for raising children. So, a married priest assigned to a bad neighborhood has an internal conflict if he is of means to live in a nicer one.

[quote][b]Point 2:[/b]
I guess any sensible man would chose a woman who is very understanding and supportive. Trouble does crop up at times but if the couple keeps God at the centre, everything will be fine. A woman competing with her husband's job or mission in life is a disastrouous wife whatever her husband's job is.[/quote]

My point was that it creates tension. His vocation as husband and father is conflicting w/ his vocation of priesthood.

[quote][b]Point 3:[/b]
First of all, Catholic don't usually confess to non-clerics.  They could share experiences but not confess. Secondly, that's what trust is for. That is the basis of every relationship let alone this kind of relationship.[/quote]

I perhaps worded it badly. I meant if someone had an adulterous relationship with the priest's wife, and confessed it to that priest. Interesting situation, huh?

[quote]I believe it should be optional.
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Ok. I believe that there's valid reason for it to be there. Since it is discipline, it can be changed. I think though, that I've shown that the Church's stand on it is quite reasonable.

BTW, I heard that other rites that do have a married priesthood require that bishops be celibate, anyway.

Edited November 16, 2005 by scardella

[dandy777]

[quote name='Myles' date='Nov 16 2005, 10:53 PM']Al thats questionable. There are ancient traditions that say that she went to Rome with him and died a martyr. Likewise Nathan I wouldnt be so quick to spring to that manner of answer. The Latin Church is not the whole Catholic Church. There has at all times been at least one part of the Catholic Church where married clergy was the norm e.g. the Maronites have never been out of communion with Rome. Our last Holy Father advised us to breathe with both lungs in the letter 'Light from the East'. Accordingly lets not make out that all sectors of the Catholic Church past or present have had a celibate priesthood. Moreover, given Vatican II and JP2's calls for the Eastern Catholics to rediscover their own traditions lets not think it likely that the Eastern Catholics will ever have an all celibate priesthood. The discipline of celibacy is unique to the Latin Church and it is a good discipline BUT it is only a discipline.
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Very interesting post Myles. It is really nice to read such posts. One always learns something new.

[dandy777]

[quote name='scardella' date='Nov 16 2005, 11:26 PM']The natural instinct of being a father is to provide the best possible upbringing for his children.  Good schools and good neighborhoods provide a good environment for raising children.  So, a married priest assigned to a bad neighborhood has an internal conflict if he is of means to live in a nicer one.[/quote]

Ok granted. However, what I meant is different. I mean I don't know where you live but in my country, many people face financial problems and there are times and situations in life where a person has to live in an area which is not that good or well off. However, everyone must try the best in every situation to excel. But yes, I do understand what you mean.

[quote name='scardella' date='Nov 16 2005, 11:26 PM']My point was that it creates tension.  His vocation as husband and father is conflicting w/ his vocation of priesthood.[/quote]

Yes, you might be right but you are forgetting one thing. Such marriages have to be taken more seriously and such priests would be more responsible and sensible in their choice of wife. Does your doubt / question also imply that non-Catholic pastors of other Christian denominations who have huge ministries and keep a family have loads of tension at home? I can assure you that it is not the case.

[quote name='scardella' date='Nov 16 2005, 11:26 PM']I perhaps worded it badly.  I meant if someone had an adulterous relationship with the priest's wife, and confessed it to that priest.  Interesting situation, huh?[/quote]

Yeah! In fact I didn't understand you immediately. Excuse me! But in such case, I think the problem would be the relationship itself. I mean he would have chosen the wrong person.

[quote name='scardella' date='Nov 16 2005, 11:26 PM']Ok.  I believe that there's valid reason for it to be there.  Since it is discipline, it can be changed.  I think though, that I've shown that the Church's stand on it is quite reasonable.[/quote]

Yes I understand that and as I said before I am not against the idea of celibacy. I am against the idea that it is obligatory. Many young men wish to become priests and work for the Lord but are not sure if they can keep up the commitment of celibacy all through their lives. I mean if you take such a vow, it is very challenging. That's why I believe it should be optional. And let's be honest, let us not make ourselves believe that ALL of our priests are in reality celibates. There are a lot who aren't. I believe it is better if it is optional and one can get married than is caught in a scandal and sets bad example to people.

[quote name='scardella' date='Nov 16 2005, 11:26 PM']BTW, I heard that other rites that do have a married priesthood require that bishops be celibate, anyway.
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I agree 100%. If I am not mistaken (correct me if I am wrong please) in the Orthodox Church, one has to choose if he is going to get married or not before he is ordained. If a priest decides to get married, he remains a simple priest but if he decides to remain celibate, he can go up the hierarchal ladder. Is it correct or do I have a wrong notion of the whole thing?

Now I am off to sleep guys... Will read the rest of the posts tomorrow cause I am really tired.

May God bless you!

[Aloysius]

Universally men only can marry before they get ordained. After ordination, no one marries, not in the East and not in the west.

Married men may be ordained. Ordained men may never be married.