Protestantism is Heresy.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 5 2005, 04:30 AM']holy martyr? woah...settle please.

All I am saying is that the split was not all his fault "we" need to take some responsability also. Luther didnt want split. He wanted praxi changes, less focus on remidal indlugences and a biblical justification for the doctrines.

woah, look...all those things happened. the eccesiological differences didnt happen until far after luther went to the grave. Those happen now, kind of like an infection doesnt happen at the time of the injury, but if the injury isnt treated.
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Luther wanted an end to the papacy.

[The Joey-O]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Dec 5 2005, 05:32 AM']not if it involves compromising the True faith for some watered-down hybrid that doesn't satisfy anyone, and a man-made ecclesiology.

i'm going to peace out and go to bed...  i have a final tomorrow.
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Merging doesn't mean compromising the Faith.
And by hybrid, we don't mean we hold things in contradiction to the Church. We carry over our faith. We didn't reject it and start over as Catholics.

[jmjtina]

I honestly don't need a luther lesson. I've read all.

and if we really went into the different sects of Protestism, we would be here all the live long day.

I seriously don't have time for this right now. Good night. I'm out.

Edited December 5, 2005 by jmjtina

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phot.o...when have I ever said to water down anything? or bring on a man made eccesilology? I never did..

"dialogue and come to a more clear understanding" is the wording JPII uses even in matters of putting the nature of the papacy up for dialogue.

..."Christ calls all his disciples to unity"

Our desire should be to renew this call today. The courageous witness of so many martyrs of our century give vigor to the call for unity and reminds us of our duty to listen to and put into practice this calling. These Brothers and sisters or ours, united in the selfless offering of their lives for the Kingdom of God, are the most powerful proff that every factor of division can be transcended and overcome in the total gift of self for the sake of the gospel.believers united in following in the footsteps of the martyrs cannot remain divided. If they wish truly and effectively to oppose the world's tendency to reduce to powerlessness the mystery of redemption, they must profess together the same truth about the cross. The anti-christian outlook seeks to minimize the cross, to empty it of its meaning, and to deny that in it man has the source of his new life. It claims that the cross is unable to provide either hope or vision. Man, it says, is nothing but an earthly being, who must live as if God does not exist. No one is unaware of the challenge which all this poses to believers. they cannot fail to meet this challenge, indeed how could they refuse to do everything possible, with God's help to break downthe walls of division and distrust, to overcome obstacles and prejudices which thwart the proclaimation of the Gospel of salvation in the cross of Jesus, the one redeemer of man, of every individual? I thank the lord that he has led us to make progress along the path of unity and communion between Christians, a path difficult but so full of joy. Interconfessional dialogues at the theological level have produced positive and tangible results: this encourages us to move forward. Never the less, besides the doctrinal differences needing to be resolved, christians cannot underestimate thew burden of long-standingmisgivings inherited from the past, and of mutual misunderstandings and prejudices. complacncy, indifference and insufficient knowledge of one another often make this situation worse. Consequently, the commitment to ecumenism must be based upon the conversion of hearts and upon prayer, which will lead to the necessary purification of past memories. With the grace of the holy spirit, the lord's disciples, inspired by love, by the power of the truth and by a sincere desire for mutual forgiveness and reconciliation, are called to re-examine together their painful past and the hurt which that past regrettably continues to provoke even today. All together, they are invited by the ever fresh power of the gospel to acknowledge with sincere and total objectivity the mistakes made and the contingent factors at work at the origins of their deplorable divisions. what is needed is a clam, clearsightful and truthful vision of things, a vision enlivened by divine mercy and capable of freeing people's minds and of inspiring in everyone a renewed willingness, precisely with a view to proclaiming the gospel to the men and women of
every tribe and nation

-Ut Unum Sint, 1-2

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[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Dec 5 2005, 05:35 AM']Luther wanted an end to the papacy.
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um..I will just boldly say this..."NO" he didnt.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 5 2005, 04:13 AM']reformation..luther wanted to reform, y'all kicked him out, tried to kill him, it became a social uprising backed by goverments, idiots like calvin showed up and developed a theology that is equal to anarchy. ironically the church reforms many of the things luther had issues with(*cause luther did not want a formal split, as much as a sanctuary until the church reformed and than return) but now we have eccesiologocal differences and dont like each other much.[/quote]
"ya'll"?? its your church too! its like your speaking for protestants now.....

also, the claim that luther did not want a formal split is definitely up for debate, but maybe this thread isn't the place.


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i would have protested as well............but i wouldn't have taught heresy and i wouldn't have left the Church.


[quote name='The Joey-O' date='Dec 5 2005, 04:14 AM']It just seems like you guys seem like you don't respect the Protestant theologains and writers enough to pick up their work. Especially in America, there work represent the by far majority of books sold and even discussed at theological seminars. Yet, you guys are, for the most part, ignorant of their stuff. One of the reasons why I became Catholic was because Catholics don't insulate themselves from culture. Yet, you guys insulate yourselves from Protestants?
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i respect protestant theologians. but, if i have a choice between a protestant theologian and a catholic one, why in the world would i prefer the protestant one? its [i][b]bound[/b][/i] to be deficient in one way or another. that's simply a guarantee. if you do not possess the fullness of Truth your message is going to be lacking. period.

i mean, i may pick up a protestant work for purely academic reasons, to familiarize myself w/ their arguments or to better understand their point of view, but i'm not going to turn to them for inspiration or understanding. do they have inspiration and understanding to offer? [i][b]of course they do[/b][/i]. cs lewis has provided both of those in large quanitites to me. but, i can get MORE inspiration and MORE understanding from a catholic work. so, of course, that's where i'm going to turn.


[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 5 2005, 04:18 AM']in Ut Unum Sint, JPII speaks of how the works in the protestant church has aided and influenced the catholic church.
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no one denies the positive influence that protestants can have. for example, b/c the majority (if not all) regard the bible to be the only infallible word of God they are highly steeped in it and they often influence catholics to study the bible more. many catholics have also adopted from protestantism its evangelical spirit, which can aid the Church in spreading the Gospel.


[quote name='The Joey-O' date='Dec 5 2005, 04:24 AM']Oy! Oy! Protestants aren't uniform in their opinions! You can't say things like, it would be "disrespectful to their claims that each individual has the right to interpret the Bible as they want". That's not Protestantism. That's Fundyism. I would have been shot dead before saying something like that.[right][snapback]811500[/snapback][/right][/quote]
so you're saying that not all protestants believe in Sola Scriptura? sure, some may respect tradition and they may highly value the interpretations of their pastor, but at the end of the day they all believe that the Bible is the only infallible rule of faith, and they raise it above any other rules that they may use.

at least, that's been my impression.......

[photosynthesis]

JP2 never said that the papacy was "up for dialogue." Yes, Catholics and Protestants need to learn from one another, and I do believe the goal is unity. However, in the Bible Jesus made Peter the rock, the first Pope that the Church was founded upon. He wanted all Christians to recieve His Body and His Blood in the Eucharist, because if you don't eat His flesh and drink His blood, you have no life within you. And as Fr. Stan Fortuna said, "That means you dead!" Jesus wanted His Flesh and His Blood to be the center of our worship. He wanted our sacrifice of the Mass to unite all Christians.

Have you been to an ecumenical service? My college tries to have them occasionally. No one is pleased. No one is happy with them, because the Protestants don't "get fed" from the sermon (which has Catholic influence) and Catholics don't "get fed" because there's no Eucharist.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Dec 5 2005, 04:43 AM']i would have protested as well............but i wouldn't have taught heresy and i wouldn't have left the Church.
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amen

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phatty,

y'all was because the poster was treating me like I was the protestant, and as a hybrid I spoke for them. My degree says i can.

Besides some catholics I have never heard an academic claim that luther wanted a split, if anything I often hear that he didnt. He didnt "leave" the church, but was kicked out.

btw, what church father hasnt at one time or another taught heresy? I wonder if someone would have sat luther down and dialogued and used scripture and simple reason to show why they were using indulgences like they did than perhaps the split would have not happened. Braaten(whom is a respected lutheran theologian) speaks that he doubts luther would have gladly approved of the current state of the church today

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='The Joey-O' date='Dec 5 2005, 04:27 AM']Nobody's "elevating" Protestant theologians above that of the Fathers and the Doctors of the Faith. Unity doesn't mean recreating Catholicism. It doesn't mean going against the established orthodoxy, the faith of the Church. A lot more Protestants would either convert or work toward furthering reunion if they understood Catholicism and stakes at risk for being divided.
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this is good to hear you say because, honestly, i thought that's what you two were implying.


[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 5 2005, 04:40 AM']um..I will just boldly say this..."NO" he didnt.
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i could reproduce quotes from luther in which he urged people to separate themselves from the "anti-Christ", the "whore", and the "harlot" that is the pope, if you like.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 5 2005, 04:50 AM']phatty,

y'all was because the poster was treating me like I was the protestant, and as a hybrid I spoke for them. My degree says i can.

Besides some catholics I have never heard an academic claim that luther wanted a split, if anything I often hear that he didnt. He didnt "leave" the church, but was kicked out.

btw, what church father hasnt at one time or another taught heresy? I wonder if someone would have sat luther down and dialogued and used scripture and simple reason to show why they were using indulgences like they did than perhaps the split would have not happened. Braaten(whom is a respected lutheran theologian) speaks that he doubts luther would have gladly approved of the current state of the church today
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the Church doesn't just "kick people out" without giving them NUMEROUS opportunities to reform themselves. Luther had the option to stop spreading his heretical teachings. But he didn't, so like the dissident theologians and heretics of the past he was excommunicated. He could have stayed in the Church if he wanted, if he just decided to live up to the title of "Catholic"

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 5 2005, 04:50 AM']btw, what church father hasnt at one time or another taught heresy?
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and that's just ridiculous.

and what exactly are you talking about when you say "hybrid?" You're either Catholic or you're not. You can't be "sort of Catholic, sort of something else."

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luther even refered to his mom to stay in the church..Im sure Braaten has done more study on this and his conclusion was not of seperation.

about UUS

95. All this however must always be done in communion. When the Catholic Church affirms that the office of the Bishop of Rome corresponds to the will of Christ, she does not separate this office from the mission entrusted to the whole body of Bishops, who are also "vicars and ambassadors of Christ".153 The Bishop of Rome is a member of the "College", and the Bishops are his brothers in the ministry.

Whatever relates to the unity of all Christian communities clearly forms part of the concerns of the primacy. As Bishop of Rome I am fully aware, as I have reaffirmed in the present Encyclical Letter, that Christ ardently desires the full and visible communion of all those Communities in which, by virtue of God's faithfulness, his Spirit dwells. I am convinced that I have a particular responsibility in this regard, above all in acknowledging the ecumenical aspirations of the majority of the Christian Communities and in heeding the request made of me to find a way of exercising the primacy which, while in no way renouncing what is essential to its mission, is nonetheless open to a new situation. For a whole millennium Christians were united in "a brotherly fraternal communion of faith and sacramental life ... If disagreements in belief and discipline arose among them, the Roman See acted by common consent as moderator".154

In this way the primacy exercised its office of unity. When addressing the Ecumenical Patriarch His Holiness Dimitrios I, I acknowledged my awareness that "for a great variety of reasons, and against the will of all concerned, what should have been a service sometimes manifested itself in a very different light. But ... it is out of a desire to obey the will of Christ truly that I recognize that as Bishop of Rome I am called to exercise that ministry ... I insistently pray the Holy Spirit to shine his light upon us, enlightening all the Pastors and theologians of our Churches, that we may seek—together, of course—the forms in which this ministry may accomplish a service of love recognized by all concerned".155

96. This is an immense task, which we cannot refuse and which I cannot carry out by myself. Could not the real but imperfect communion existing between us persuade Church leaders and their theologians to engage with me in a patient and fraternal dialogue on this subject, a dialogue in which, leaving useless controversies behind, we could listen to one another, keeping before us only the will of Christ for his Church and allowing ourselves to be deeply moved by his plea "that they may all be one ... so that the world may believe that you have sent me" (Jn 17:21)?

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[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Dec 5 2005, 06:11 AM']and that's just ridiculous.

and what exactly are you talking about when you say "hybrid?"  You're either Catholic or you're not.  You can't be "sort of Catholic, sort of something else."
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Im a hybrid..

check the convert/revert forum

you seem so angry tonight..Well, im gonna get some sleep. Hope you do also

[photosynthesis]

I'm not angry. I just haven't slept in a few days.