Protestantism is Heresy.

[Laudate_Dominum]

In our own time the impact of John Paul II and Mother Teresa stands out in my mind. I cant' think of any protestants who would seem to be in this class.

When I read your post a few names popped into my mind. But I don't really think it's fair to compare. But for what its worth:

I would like to see a catholic with the impact of a cs lewis
St Augustine
St Thomas
St Gregory the Great

or the devotions of a Max luciado.
St Faustina
St Teresa of Avila
St Francis de Sales

Or someone who steps up fast yet understandable like a Greg Boyd.
Cardinal Newman
Chesterton
Irenaeus

A historian with no prejudice like Mark Noll,
Christopher Dawson

or an eccesilogy ecumenist like Braaten
Dulles
Johann Mohler

a pneumatologist like Yancy.
St Basil
Kolbe

I mean really as a hybrid I see this but pentacostals for what they lack in generally everything they slaughter in their awareness of the spirt and the gifts that He blesses with.
St Benedict
St John of the Cross
Padre Pio

Besides L.T.J. who steped up against the Jesus Seminar?
Countless Catholic scholars have engaged the Jesus Seminar quacks.

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ok, LD...maybe I should rephrase this..who is doin something"now" protestant claim access to augustine, to thomas because they feel that they were theologians before catholic became roman.

Also, CS lewis took theology and explained it to laymen. That has not been seen anywhere else to that level.

Your devotion people are great...but, um..their dead. And luciodo is crankin out books that take our times and find faith in them. Same as Eldridge. I dont see this coming from the church

the bulldogs(boyd) you mentioned, well, Irenaeus cant do much to the common debates cause he is dead. and like I said before protestants use the fathers also.

catholics are oftened picked on for their lack of pneutology. This is more of fluff's arena, but I hear it often.

My point LD..wasnt that protestants are able to be on their own, but rather they got some weapons that would prove to be a great assist to our party. They are hardly not gifted in theology. JPII did some great work, but the average believer isnt gonna read "theology of the body" and understand anything.
(I know, I gave it to some peeps)

closest thing I can think of is Kreeft, but I just wish we would put down our arms and use both sides here. WHat would the catholic equal to "letters from a skeptic" be? Or the Rick warren "40 days" devottion?

[phatcatholic]

whether or not they are alive or dead is irrelevant. if they are catholic and they continue to have a strong impact on catholics then they remain the best that catholicism has to offer. your influence doesn't die with you.

at any rate, here are some living catholic authors and theologians to compare to the protestant theologians you have provided. note that i have no doubt that there are very wise and capable men from the various protestant traditions. but their message will always be deficient to the degree in which they are separate from the Church. i also think you severely under-estimate what Catholicism has to offer in the way of great minds and learned individuals.

[quote]a catholic with the impact of a cs lewis . . . . CS lewis took theology and explained it to laymen. That has not been seen anywhere else to that level[/quote]
what about Scott Hahn and Karl Keating? i can't think of anyone presently who has been so proficient at bringing catholic theology to the laity like these two men. also, since c.s. lewis is dead, i feel that i can present a deceased counterpart. how about Fulton Sheen? i dare say sheen's influence was greater.


[quote]the devotions of a Max luciado[/quote]
how about benedict groeschel and henry nouwen? catholics and protestants alike are in love with their devotions (especially nouwen). deceased counterpart: thomas merton.


[quote]someone who steps up fast yet understandable like a Greg Boyd . . . . the bulldogs(boyd) you mentioned, well, Irenaeus cant do much to the common debates cause he is dead. and like I said before protestants use the fathers also.[/quote]
how about ratzinger? there's hardly a bull much like "the rat" robert sungenis is quite the bulldog as well. deceased counterpart: St. Francis de Sales.


[quote]A historian with no prejudice like Mark Noll[/quote]
i submit William H. Carroll and William A. Jurgens. their works on the history of christianity are unparalleled. deceased counterpart: Eusebius.


[quote]an eccesilogy ecumenist like Braaten[/quote]
LD already provided two. i would like to add Richard John Neuhaus. his name must be mentioned in any conversation about evangelical catholicism and ecumenism. deceased counterpart: Pope John Paul the Great


[quote]a pneumatologist like Yancy. . . . I mean really as a hybrid I see this but pentacostals for what they lack in generally everything they slaughter in their awareness of the spirt and the gifts that He blesses with. . . . [/quote]
i'm not very well-acquainted w/ the charistmatic movement in the church, but i trust L_D's recommendations


[quote]Besides L.T.J. who steped up against the Jesus Seminar? [/quote]
William G. Most!!!! he died only recently, so i don't know if you will accept him or not. but, he was amazingly prolific in his life, writing hundreds of articles in different publications on biblical criticism. he was very vocal against their methods. a brilliant man.


again, i don't doubt that there are some great minds in other faiths. but i would hesitate to ever say that protestants have "one up" on catholics in ANY area. the mere fulness of truth is in our favor.

just my 0.02

pax chrisit,
phatcatholic

[Era Might]

[quote]Also, CS lewis took theology and explained it to laymen. That has not been seen anywhere else to that level.[/quote]

Two words:

Frank Sheed.

Another two words:

Mother Angelica.



[quote]I just wish we would put down our arms and use both sides here. [/quote]

There's nothing wrong with "using both sides", but it must be tempered. There's no doubt that there are many Protestant (and even non-Christian) thinkers who we can benefit from. Plato and Aristotle are the greatest examples. But the best of their work must be absorbed into a Catholic framework, and the insufficiencies must be recognized as such.

[Era Might]

And great modern thinkers abound in the Church, from Hans Urs Von Balthasar and Joseph Ratzinger, to Joseph Pieper, Henri de Lubac, and Mortimer Adler.

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Im not saying they are better, they just have tools that would be a great help to the church.

I have read ratz, but I can hand my 16yr old sister mere christianity and see can understand it, where as not with "introduction to christanity" also, Hahn compared to cs lewis? Please..are you serious? thats like a knick fan sayin marbury is the best pg just cause he wears the threads, its being a "homer"

as a protestant theologian before the revert I would have not known whom many of those people are. Which means they are not reaching into the masses like they should be. Even with the Jesus seminar issue(in which I had much interest with Boyd) the only catholic whom I saw who did anything was Luke tim Johnson.

"theology and sanity" by sheed is great, but doesnt touch Lewis. I also doubt that sheen had the effect that lewis did. To the masses that statement is just being a homer

[phatcatholic]

pssht..........whatever...........i'm not gonna debate it since debate isn't allowed here. suffice it to say i find you sadly mistaken.

[phatcatholic]

moving this to the debate table......

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:'(

its dialogue, not debate...Im just makin sure people dont think of protestants as an offbranch feces and instead as members of the family that we have fought with and dont return home for christimas

[Era Might]

[quote]Im not saying they are better, they just have tools that would be a great help to the church.[/quote]

Sure they do. That's why Catholics are among the biggest fans of CS Lewis. But the focus of higher thinkers is more conspicuous in what it lacks from a Catholic perspective. Sure, it might be beneficial to read a Protestant theologian's thoughts on Ecclesiology. But at the end of the day, the average Catholic isn't looking to compare higher thinkers. They want to learn what the Church teaches. Comparative studies are fine for theologians and bookish people. But Joe in the pew just wants to learn more about his own faith, not someone else's.

[quote]"theology and sanity" by sheed is great, but doesnt touch Lewis.[/quote]

I would take Sheed over Lewis any day. Lewis is a fine defender of the Christian faith. Sheed is a better defender of the Catholic faith. And at the end of the day, it is the Catholic Christian faith I am most concerned about.

You can call me a "homer" if you want. But you are confusing people's roles. You're comparing the Roman empire with the United States. The Roman empire was great in its context, but the United States is greater in a different context. The Romans had a lot of inventions we have inherited. But they don't compare to the tools at the hands of the United States.

Edited December 5, 2005 by Era Might

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Cs Lewis took advanced concepts and explained them in a way that a 17yrold could read and come to a moving faith. I have read Theology and Sanity, its a great book, but it doesnt touch to what lewis did in Mere christianity, or in screwtape.

I use both, Im sorry if this "dialogue" got out of context. I just felt offended that people were saying protestants are all lacking in grace and theology and "could only play ultimate frisbee"

[Era Might]

Well, Protestants do objectively lack grace (the Sacraments) and theology (Catholic dogmatics). But I think the comment was meant humorously, not as a polemical jab at Protestants.

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I would argue that they lack foundations to build theology on, and perhaps some of the tools..and clearly the accountability(woah) but not in the ability to explore and develop theology.

If they are "so lacking in grace" how come as JPII says we see the spirit in the church? Perhaps the spirit gives them grace in a different way? Has anyone ever done some great pneutology in the function the HS relates to the protestant churches? Im not downing the sacrments and I feel those churches are hurting themselves by not having them. yet they still come to a saving grace

btw...in my study and relations with protestants is that lack of accountability with each other in doctrine, and lack of convesion hurts deeply.

yet, the lack of a "personal relationship" seen in the common catholic hurts them as well.

hmm, bring the family together

Edited December 5, 2005 by Revprodeji

[The Joey-O]

Era Might, you're a good guy.

The Problem: The majority of Protestants aren't in protest of the church, especially in the evangelical, free church community. They see Catholics as Christians. The problem is, the majority of those same free church protestants don't know a single Catholic who's worth their salt. Before I met my fiance, I didn't know a Catholic that was even a decent human being. What I knew about Catholicism just 4 years ago: a lot of people who felt forced to go to church on Christmas and Easter and figured that was enough to get them to Purgatory where they'd wait out their sentence til they could go to Heaven. Every sin, every evil deed imaginable (save some especially bad sins, like murder and rape; surprisingly enough, premarrital sex wasn't included in this category) was excusable through confession and purgatory. I'm not saying Protestantism is preferrable, because I found that if you look hard enough, you'll find good Catholics. However, it's easy to blow off becoming Catholic. Especially, if you don't take your time to research into the Church.

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='The Joey-O' date='Dec 5 2005, 02:06 AM']Era Might, you're a good guy.

The Problem: The majority of Protestants aren't in protest of the church, especially in the evangelical, free church community. They see Catholics as Christians. The problem is, the majority of those same free church protestants don't know a single Catholic who's worth their salt. Before I met my fiance, I didn't know a Catholic that was even a decent human being. What I knew about Catholicism just 4 years ago: a lot of people who felt forced to go to church on Christmas and Easter and figured that was enough to get them to Purgatory where they'd wait out their sentence til they could go to Heaven. Every sin, every evil deed imaginable (save some especially bad sins, like murder and rape; surprisingly enough, premarrital sex wasn't included in this category) was excusable through confession and purgatory. I'm not saying Protestantism is preferrable, because I found that if you look hard enough, you'll find good Catholics. However, it's easy to blow off becoming Catholic. Especially, if you don't take your time to research into the Church.
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many times we experience the same thing but with protestants

I think theres some in every circle