'Quiet' Catholicism?

[Myles Domini]

It has occured to me living in post 9/11 Europe that perhaps the Islamic extremists are not as crazy as many might think. Naturally, there is an evident degree of madness in suicide bombing people--including other Muslims--indiscrimately in the name of a greater good. However, as a political strategem can we not say that for the most part: [b]Terrorism Works[/b]?

Take, for example, the Madrid bombings. They were terrible and to many unforgiveable but what was the reaction of the Spanish government: Leave Iraq! Now, I'm not going to get into the rights and wrongs of the Iraq war (if it matters I was not pro-war at the outset but I also believe that if one makes a mess one should not run off before cleaning it up) but the fact is in the face of terror the Spanish backed down and they're not the only ones.

Across Europe it appears to me that nobody, no journalist, no comedian, no politician dares to say anything remotely negative about Islam whereas on the contrary Christ, His Holy Catholic Church, the Blessed Virgin Mother and the saints are the objects of unending ridicule. If you want to mock Christ as being a homosexual or a womaniser (yes, there are those bold enough to insinuate that the women who followed Our Lord were more than followers) or make out that his birth was due to a Roman soldier raping his Holy Mother then thats all good. Yet, on the other hand nobody dares to make jokes about Mohammed out of fear of being offensive.

In light of the dancing done by the liberal intelligensia around Islam can we not quite fairly that the fear element, [i]the terror[/i], has indeed had its desired effects? Is it not true that the Islamists are winning the war on terror and that by threat of violence they are evidently influencing ordinary peoples thoughts and feelings towards Islam?

I dont know but perhaps we Catholics need to do what our Mediaeval forefathers did when they looked at Al-Andalus realised how far Islam had progressed by force of arms and thought to themselves that maybe the Muslim way certainly had something to be said for it. I'm not advocating another Crusade but, with deep sadness, I must say that I am certain that if Catholics were adopting the extremist tactics that we would not be such easy targets.

How many Dan Brown's would there be if we treated him and his work as the Ayatollah Khomeni treated Salman Rushdie? How many people do you think would be heading off to the abortion clinic if they thought that day it would get blown up? Indicative is the way tourism in London has suffered post 7/7. What do you reckon the likelihood of offensive productions about Jesus would be made if on the opening night there would be riots? Ever heard about a northern English town called Bradford?

What are your thoughts phatpham? Is Catholicism 'quiet' by nature? Should we protest non-violently? Even violently in cases of neccessity? Where do you stand?

Beau Seant
Myles

[Paphnutius]

[quote]Across Europe it appears to me that nobody, no journalist, no comedian, no politician dares to say anything remotely negative about Islam whereas on the contrary Christ, His Holy Catholic Church, the Blessed Virgin Mother and the saints are the objects of unending ridicule. If you want to mock Christ as being a homosexual or a womaniser (yes, there are those bold enough to insinuate that the women who followed Our Lord were more than followers) or make out that his birth was due to a Roman soldier raping his Holy Mother then thats all good. Yet, on the other hand nobody dares to make jokes about Mohammed out of fear of being offensive.[/quote]I do not mean to come off as rude or simply quiting but I would say get used to that. We were told that the Church would be persecuted. It is simple not by physical martyrdom. At the same time, we not supposed to just get used to it and go on ignoring it, but instead we are to use such persecutions as a means of spreading the faith.

Edited November 13, 2005 by Paphnutius

[DAF]

well I'm not affraid to say that mohammed lied. But the Gospels and the Church tell us that love is the only thing that will conquer in the end. And I don't know about you, but on that last day I'd rather stand before the Father Almighty and have him be proud of me. Jesus wouldn't have run into a wedding ceremony and blwon himself up, I think it's lunacy to even think of doing it now (even if this example is a bit inflated). We know how you feel myles. We're all sick of getting pushed around, but they will recieve their just rewards. This world is only temporary, and suffering is redemptive, remember?

That said, I don't think it would hurt to finally come out of the woodwork and stand toe to toe with these animals. Jesus wasn't afraid to turn a few tables over, why should we think any differently now.
God Bless the Catholic Church
In Christ

[tojo]

I understand where you are coming from, but I personally would advocate radical peaceful protests and civil dosobedience, the likes of which Gandhi pushed for the independence of India with, and Dr. Martin Luther King pushed for civil rights with.

I'd love to see millions upon millions of Catholics taking to the streets with their rosary and marching on murder-mills, millions upon millions of us boycotting companies associated with immoprality, and telling them that we are doing it, to send a message, stuff like that.

[DAF]

Tomasio, that would be wonderful! My heart would swell with pride. But starving ourselves in protest might be taking a step backward...

[MichaelFilo]

Comming from Iraq, I can only agree with Myles.

Islam has kept all quiet on the Middle Eastern front, so to speak. The threat of physical force against every anti-islamic remark is quite felt there; no doubt in Europe.

Up in Amsterdam there is a talk show between a Catholic priest, an Orthodox priest (why I might ask, but ecumenism is the answer), and a Catholic convert from Islam. They actually go on and talk about the errors of Islam. Their lives have been threatened more than a few times. They happen to be the exceptions; few people get up on the pulpit and preach the errors of Islam.

According to my Church (and anyone else who should proclaim himself Catholic) I belong to the Church miitant. Militant never meant passive aggresive, it means what it sounds like. I am up in arms (or supposed to be) in defense of the Catholic Faith. Sometimes my weapons are words, but often times I feel the need to surpass words and go on and use other weapons readily available for the defense of the Faith and oftentimes in today's world, life itself.

However, in a world where toleration is preached more often than Christ it is very hard to put into practice such a militant attitude that our Church requires of us. Regardless, when words aren't enough, Jesus has set the example that we must use more extreme measures when the situation calls for it.

Our own Church has a similiar history. When the Faith was threatend in southern France by the Albigenses heresy Catholics took up arms. With Rosary beads and steeled (armed) men Catholic knights vanquished that heresy and returned the proper Faith to those poor misled souls. Mary was clearly in full support as she carried the 2,000 strong knights against the much more populated enemy ,in one of those battles, to victory.

So yes, I voted the last because I see the grounds for it. However, as Pope Innocent III stressed, moderation is neccessary in such a case.

God bless,
Mikey

[Dreamweaver]

[quote name='DAF' date='Nov 13 2005, 05:07 PM']Tomasio, that would be wonderful! My heart would swell with pride. But starving ourselves in protest might be taking a step backward...

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Society itself doesn't really care about people of faith and such. The only ones in an uproar over the Terri Schaivo thing were pro-lifers. Others had such mean things to say about her and those who beleive in life. Sadly, would other groups care if we all went on a hunger strike?

[DAF]

Our Church is not one of feelings. It is one based on fact. We can't just up and lynch somebody when we're tired of getting pushed around.
The Church's concept of Church Militant is much like Islam's concept of Jihad. It's a struggle against evil. I generally isn't to be taken literally (i.e. starting another crusade). However, I would be more than willing to support a war if Mother Church called for it. But until then, I'll be laying down in the street in front of the white house of something.
We should get together and organize a massive march somewhere though. That would rock my socks.

[tojo]

[quote name='DAF' date='Nov 13 2005, 05:07 PM']Tomasio, that would be wonderful! My heart would swell with pride. But starving ourselves in protest might be taking a step backward...

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[quote name='Dreamweaver' date='Nov 13 2005, 05:48 PM']Society itself doesn't really care about people of faith and such. The only ones in an uproar over the Terri Schaivo thing were pro-lifers. Others had such mean things to say about her and those who beleive in life.  Sadly, would other groups care if we all went on a hunger strike?
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Who said anything about a hunger strike?

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='DAF' date='Nov 13 2005, 06:50 PM']Our Church is not one of feelings. It is one based on fact. We can't just up and lynch somebody when we're tired of getting pushed around.
The Church's concept of Church Militant is much like Islam's concept of Jihad. It's a struggle against evil. I generally isn't to be taken literally (i.e. starting another crusade). However, I would be more than willing to support a war if Mother Church called for it. But until then, I'll be laying down in the street in front of the white house of something.
We should get together and organize a massive march somewhere though. That would rock my socks.
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Our Church has and will continue to support all that is neccessary to keep the moral order around the world. Be it martyrdom for morality, or be it the use of extreme measures to keep the order; She has and will continue to support both.

Who's to say we can't take Church militant to be literal? We are in an active war for the salvation of souls. Most of things with souls that I see have bodies. I have a body. I therefore am to carry out this war not just by prayer but by action as both are disposable to me. Possibly the greatest fallacy that there is is to downplay the reality of the spiritual war which by all means is not limited to the spiritual. It affects the material world very much and so must also be carried out here. Just to see how intertwined the material is to the spiritual we need only look to what happened at Corinth when they commited the mortal sin of receiving the Eucharist while seperated from God (a spiritual condition): "This is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dieing". (1 Cor 11:30).

To see the effectiveness of this wholly democratic idea that we can "protest" peacefully we need only look to the (yearly?) Catholic march for life on the anniversary of Roe vs Wade.

St. Francis says it best : "Always preach the Gospel, when neccessary use words". St. Francis served many people and won many converts to the Christian Faith by his example. We can hold picket signs and protest but these are empty words, our actions speak loudest, and in the case of abortion simply not having abortions isn't enough (I use abortion because it is easily one of the most likely reasons to get militant).

God bless,
Mikey

[Socrates]

[quote name='Myles' date='Nov 13 2005, 09:49 AM']It has occured to me living in post 9/11 Europe that perhaps the Islamic extremists are not as crazy as many might think. Naturally, there is an evident degree of madness in suicide bombing people--including other Muslims--indiscrimately in the name of a greater good. However, as a political strategem can we not say that for the most part: [b]Terrorism Works[/b]?

Take, for example, the Madrid bombings. They were terrible and to many unforgiveable but what was the reaction of the Spanish government: Leave Iraq! Now, I'm not going to get into the rights and wrongs of the Iraq war (if it matters I was not pro-war at the outset but I also believe that if one makes a mess one should not run off before cleaning it up) but the fact is in the face of terror the Spanish backed down and they're not the only ones.

Across Europe it appears to me that nobody, no journalist, no comedian, no politician dares to say anything remotely negative about Islam whereas on the contrary Christ, His Holy Catholic Church, the Blessed Virgin Mother and the saints are the objects of unending ridicule. If you want to mock Christ as being a homosexual or a womaniser (yes, there are those bold enough to insinuate that the women who followed Our Lord were more than followers) or make out that his birth was due to a Roman soldier raping his Holy Mother then thats all good. Yet, on the other hand nobody dares to make jokes about Mohammed out of fear of being offensive. 

In light of the dancing done by the liberal intelligensia around Islam can we not quite fairly that the fear element, [i]the terror[/i], has indeed had its desired effects? Is it not true that the Islamists are winning the war on terror and that by threat of violence they are evidently influencing ordinary peoples thoughts and feelings towards Islam?

I dont know but perhaps we Catholics need to do what our Mediaeval forefathers did when they looked at Al-Andalus realised how far Islam had progressed by force of arms and thought to themselves that maybe the Muslim way certainly had something to be said for it. I'm not advocating another Crusade but, with deep sadness, I must say that I am certain that if Catholics were adopting the extremist tactics that we would not be such easy targets.

How many Dan Brown's would there be if we treated him and his work as the Ayatollah Khomeni treated Salman Rushdie? How many people do you think would be heading off to the abortion clinic if they thought that day it would get blown up? Indicative is the way tourism in London has suffered post 7/7. What do you reckon the likelihood of offensive productions about Jesus would be made if on the opening night there would be riots? Ever heard about a northern English town called Bradford?

What are your thoughts phatpham? Is Catholicism 'quiet' by nature? Should we protest non-violently? Even violently in cases of neccessity? Where do you stand?

Beau Seant
Myles
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I think overall, in America things are not quite so far gone in this way as in Europe, though this is definitely very much a problem here too, especially in the "mainstream media" and in p.c. liberal circles.

I have two basic points to make. First, Catholics by and large definitely need to start growing some balls and standing up for our beleifs and the right to proclaim them. Too many have fallen into the trap of relativism and excessive liberal "tolerance," in which they are afraid to proclaim their beliefs for fear of offending those who believe differently. All the while, the anti-Christian ACLU-style Left shows absolutely no concern about tolerance for orthodox Christians, and does all it can to remove Christianity from the public sphere, both with laws and litigation and by the culture. It grows ever bolder in these efforts. Too many Christians and Catholics (especially those with liberal political sympathies) don't take a stand, but idly accept this.
Even if all good Catholics spoke out publicly against such things, and truly voted their conscience, I'm sure a difference could be made.

Second, while we should stand up for our Faith, we must remember that the Catholic Faith is not the same as Islam, and its ways are not the same. Christianity was spread by preaching the truth and the blood of martyrs. Islam was spread by violence and military conquest.
This is not to preach pacifism or to say that force may never be used to defend the faith against its enemies, however Islamic-style terrorism should never be used to "spread the faith."
Besides the obvious self-destructive stupidity of such tactics, terrorism for whatever cause is immoral and evil, and I beleive has been soundly condemned by the Church. We must not become the monsters we are fighting in order to fight them.

This shows a most un-Catholic "ends justify the means" mentality. (And I do not beleive it would be effective at all. Terrorism only "works" in Europe because the people there have become gutless cowards who beleive in nothing.)

It grieves and disturbs me deeply to see Catholics on here promoting terrorist violence. (I have been in some ugly debates on this topic in the past.)

[Socrates]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Nov 13 2005, 07:46 PM']To see the effectiveness of this wholly democratic idea that we can "protest" peacefully we need only look to the (yearly?) Catholic march for life on the anniversary of Roe vs Wade.
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Do you seriously think the March would be more effective if the Marchers ran around commiting acts of violence?

[MichaelFilo]

So, what do you say? Do you think that saying the rosary outside an abortion clinic (make that 6 rosaries) will somehow make the problem go away? It hasn't yet.

Will getting all the Catholics together to march around with signs in fron tof the whitehouse for one day in a year, while abortion supporters hold up their own not to far, make abortion stop?

Maybe then we should vote against abortion; except that leads to one problem, even our vote is meaningless if there is nothing to vote on. Nothing we vote on but our representitives (who will NOT take a stand against abortion, they will only stop the spread of it) is of any relevance anyway. No state has banned abortion (Roe vs. Wade didn't make a ruling against abortion, but that doesn't mean states couldn't do it).

You see, for all that effort (and I joke when I say this, because the effort is nearly non-existant and is reduced to word battles between the murders and the anti-murders, and picket sign holding once a year) not much comes out of it. If you put a burrito in the microwave, and shut the microwave, it won't start by itself. Thats basically where we are at. Theres lots of potential, but there needs to be a spark.

Operation Rescue here in Florida found many Catholics (ordained and consecrated making up a large number of the group) in jail. Why? Because they took action upon those prayers. I can only imagine how many lives were saved. Now, for maybe each 3 people in jail we can assume maybe 1-7 saved babies. For the thousands of Catholics holding signs up, none were saved. For the rosarys outside the clinic each week, maybe 5-10 babis a month.

Militant action is the most productive. This isn't one of those "time will solve the problem situations" because for every moment one of our potential brothers in Christ is damned to never receive a sacrament or to be accepted into the Church and must die with Original sin upon him. I am sorry if you find it crazy, but unless we take action against these disgusting practices, and I mean militant action, we fail miserably to be like Christ.

When Christ saved the woman from being stoned, did he stand back and pray for her? Did he go up and protest against the practice of stoning adulterers (in his case, teach against it)? No, he walked up right in there and saved her life.

Militant doesn't have to equate with violence. Militant does have to equate taking action.

God bless,
Mikey

[Paphnutius]

MichaelFilo, are you familiar with double effect? It strictly says that one may not do evil so that good may come from it (usually expressed that the good must be more immediatly present than the evil effect). So if any of these "extreme measures" of yours are evil then it is not endorsed by the Church.

Also, you mentioned that saying the rosary has not produced any effects in regards to abortion...well MichaelFilo, have you ever considered that 100 people saying the rosary outside an abortion clinic might have saved one baby that day? Is that not worth it? Has it ever crossed your mind that God's ways are not our ways? That sounds familiar. Our prayers and picketing are producing effects, they may not simply be the immediate effects that you want. BTW, have you heard about the Catholic on the supreme court? Results of prayers perhaps? Just maybe?

You are correct, we must take action, but it is not to be suicide bombing that we see, or the attacking of clinics. We can go in and turn over tables, but we must not raise the hand against our neighbor.

Edited November 14, 2005 by Paphnutius

[bamagirl135791]

A great example of peaceful marching is the Right to Life March in Washington DC. I haven't been yet but I'm going this year..so excited.