Physical Body in heaven?

[thessalonian]

Evidently we haven't figured everything out about the properties of either physical or spiritual realms or for that matter even come close. Christ in his resurected body walked through a wall. Even in his natural body he was able to walk on water. God is in control of the physical and evdiently while we know some physical laws we don't know em all.

[Ziggamafu]

The most interesting aspect of the question is in the implications surrounding Mary, Jesus, Elijah, and (presumably) Enoch and others like them who are bodily in Heaven. How can a temporal thing (the physical, finite flesh) exist in a purely spiritual environment (infinity / eternity)? Is there a way to explain this in a way that does justice to Truth's divine quality of Logic?

[Justin86]

[quote name='Didacus' post='1705528' date='Nov 20 2008, 10:56 PM']They are human souls, imcomplete unti lthe final accomplishments of the end of time.[/quote]
But how can there be such a thing as "a human soul", if by definition of "human" you're saying both soul and body?

[quote]Maybe like souls waiting to be conceived?[/quote]
I had always envisioned souls waiting to be conceived as existing solely in the mind of God, while souls in Heaven are outside of Him in Heaven existing around Him. I have trouble picturing souls just sitting around up there, waiting to be shot down to Earth. I also believe that it is silly to assume every soul that exists in the mind of an Infinite God is going to be created. I doubt we humans could even count the number of souls God has thought of. We were only chosen for creation because God loved us.

In either case, we are getting rather off topic with that discussion.

[quote]Do angels have a full nature without a body?[/quote]
Actually the "angelic" nature is by definition a pure-spirit being, so I believe the answer would be that angels actually can't "take upon flesh" like our Lord became "truly man" , or else they would no longer be pure spirits.

Our human nature on the other hand, apparently must consist of both body and spirit. Confusing since most members of Heaven don't have bodies as of yet.

[quote]Do they slip on a body to come to heaven like we put on clothes to go to work?[/quote]
I believe the correct answer is exactly that.

[quote]Do they have several bodies to choose from when they do?[/quote]
If I remember correctly angels actually have the ability to manipulate matter, so it's not far fetched that they would adjust the look of their "bodies" to suit the purpose of their apparitions.

[quote]I was asked CAM42 if Saint Augustine genuinely thought that the pagans gods were real demons trying to sway humans to hell; he had written several pasasges in 'Cityu of God' leading me to think this may be the case. CAM42 never got back to me on this one but he did admit it was a very intersting question.[/quote]
I absolutely believe this myself. The pagan gods and goddess' had way to much in common throughout world cultures (although they were under different names) to just be coincidences.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Justin86

[Justin86]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1705541' date='Nov 20 2008, 11:22 PM']The most interesting aspect of the question is in the implications surrounding Mary, Jesus, Elijah, and (presumably) Enoch and others like them who are bodily in Heaven. How can a temporal thing (the physical, finite flesh) exist in a purely spiritual environment (infinity / eternity)? Is there a way to explain this in a way that does justice to Truth's divine quality of Logic?[/quote]
Flesh may be finite, but that doesn't make it necessarily mortal(God originally created flesh to be immortal, by the way). If you wanted to ban all things finite from Heaven than obviously the only Persons who would exist there would be God.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1705574' date='Nov 20 2008, 10:53 AM']Flesh may be finite, but that doesn't make it necessarily mortal(God originally created flesh to be immortal, by the way). If you wanted to ban all things finite from Heaven than obviously the only Persons who would exist there would be God.[/quote]

But heaven being outside of time would only contain things that cannot end (hence be infinite) since any-thing contianed in heaven would not be subject to change.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1705574' date='Nov 20 2008, 10:53 AM']Flesh may be finite, but that doesn't make it necessarily mortal(God originally created flesh to be immortal, by the way). If you wanted to ban all things finite from Heaven than obviously the only Persons who would exist there would be God.[/quote]

I use the word "finite" to illustrate the temporal nature of flesh as opposed to the non-temporal nature of spirit. Heaven is not bound by time or space, as it is the dwelling of infinite God from all eternity. Those who dwell in Heaven, then, can occupy neither space nor time as space-time does not exist "there". But physical bodies, by nature, necessitate (logically demand) time and space [i]to occupy.[/i] And that is the dilemma I am highlighting for the sake of speculation.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Ziggamafu

[dUSt]

If I was in Heaven with a body and all the other peeps were still waiting on theirs, I would probably laugh at them from time to time.

[Didacus]

If I was the son of God i'd be calling the devil every day laughing at him for living in hell.
(probably wouldn't stay son of God for very long with that attitude though)

[frenchfry]

Why is it assumed that heaven is a spiritual world? Yes, that is the major attitude today, but that doesn't mean that it's true. I think that heaven will have major physical components.

It's a really good question about souls "waiting for a body." The only response I can think of is that, because heaven exists outside of time, it won't really be a time difference at all between the time our souls get to heaven and the resurrection of all bodies.

[Apotheoun]

The Church Fathers taught the Biblical doctrine of the resurrection, and rejected platonic / gnostic dualism as contrary to Christian faith.

[reyb]

[indent][b]1 Cor 15:35-44[/b]
[color="#FF0000"]35 But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

[b]If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body[/b].[/color]
NIV[/indent]
-------------------------
[indent]While listening to your discussion, it seems you are all convince in one way or another that this ‘spiritual body’ mentioned in the above verse is a ‘spiritual body’ but having a sort of physical or ‘flesh’ component. Thus, even heaven itself is not entirely and purely spiritual in nature as mentioned by [post="1707554"]french-fry[/post], in order to justify the presence of this kind of spiritual-but flesh-body in heaven as in the case of Virgin Mary, Jesus, Elijah and Enoch. This idea is an unacceptable or illogical with respect to the arguments presented by [post="786069"]Victor[/post] and [post="1705541"]Ziggamafu [/post]since they discussed the conflict of ‘finite or flesh’ as against the infinite nature of spirit.

According to Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 15:50, ‘[color="#FF0000"]I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable[/color].’, hence, our subject argument seems irresoluble.

Of course, those who embrace this belief will further justify that this ‘spiritual-flesh-body’ is different from the flesh we know today since it is a body that has been changed as it is written in 1 Cor 15:51-52. But again, it will be in conflict to the tradition regarding Virgin Mary, Elijah and Enoch who are all already in heaven with their bodies while 1 Cor 15:51-52 is speaking of this ‘changed’ on resurrection day..
_
NIV

Now, since you are hard core Catholics may I know , what is the official stand of the Roman Catholic Church regarding this ‘spiritual body’ in the above verse? In short, what is this ‘spiritual body’ Apostle Paul is saying?


Is paragraph 365, in Chapter One, Article One referring to this ‘spiritual body’?

And to Justin86, where do you get the idea that [post="1705574"]‘God originally created flesh to be immortal[/post]…’. Can we have the bible verse for our ready reference? [/indent]

Edited November 22, 2008 by reyb