Chesterbel could become a reality ...

[Sojourner]

[url="http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110007536"]Interesting piece from the Wall Street Journal ... [/url]

[quote]Last Saturday, members of the alumni association of the Ave Maria School of Law met in Ann Arbor, Mich. They had learned, in the weeks before, that one of the school's most beloved professors was being kicked off the board of trustees and that the school might relocate to rural Florida. They weren't happy about it. In fact, they were angry.

And little wonder. Why, after all, quibble with success? In September, only five years after the school's founding, the American Bar Association granted full accreditation to Ave Maria, whose mission is to offer "an outstanding legal education in fidelity to the Catholic Faith." Last year a higher percentage of the school's graduates passed the bar exam than the University of Michigan's. But there is more at stake than one school's record. The controversy playing out at Ave Maria echoes a larger debate within Catholic conservatism--over how much to engage with the secular world.

The story began on Sept. 28, when the school's board of trustees voted 12-2 to establish term limits on its members. Among the members affected by the decision, only one had expressed an interest in staying on the board--Prof. Charles Rice, a respected figure on campus. Many alumni, students and faculty members believe that Prof. Rice is being pushed out because of his views. He had voiced strong opposition to an apparent effort by the chairman of the board, Tom Monaghan, to move Ave Maria to Florida. [/quote]
[quote]Mr. Monaghan certainly has every legal right to move the law school he pays for. But that doesn't mean it's a good idea. "We understood \[that\] the mission of the law school," says Terence McKeegan, a member of the school's alumni association, was "to create attorneys who were well versed in Catholic social teaching and the law, who would engage the world and not retreat from it." Ave Maria Town seems at odds with such a mission. "It sounds like this town and the university in Florida is going to be a self-contained little Catholic enclave."

A May 2004 speech by Mr. Monaghan, given at a conference on business ethics, would seem to confirm this speculation. "We'll own all commercial real estate," Mr. Monaghan declared, describing his vision. "That means we will be able to control what goes on there. You won't be able to buy a Playboy or Hustler magazine in Ave Maria Town. We're going to control the cable television that comes in the area. There is not going to be any pornographic television in Ave Maria Town. If you go to the drug store and you want to buy the pill or the condoms or contraception, you won't be able to get that in Ave Maria Town."[/quote]

[Aloysius]

sweet. I envision the formation of many villages or towns like this all accross the country. some started by me or people assosiated by me, some started by others, but ultimately I would hope we could form some sort of alliance of a New Christendom.

wouldn't it be cool if on the outskirts of every major city in the US there was a small Catholic town? :

[Sojourner]

I'm not sure how I feel about that. I do know that "cool" is not the word that jumps immediately to mind.

[Aloysius]

Why not? The ultimate goal of Catholic Social Justice is the restoration and developement of Christendom, the reign of Christ on earth.

Such a thing would establish Catholics as a more visible force in the world. The incarnational Church ought to strive to be the visible body of Christ in the world.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 11 2005, 04:20 PM']sweet.  I envision the formation of many villages or towns like this all accross the country.  some started by me or people assosiated by me, some started by others, but ultimately I would hope we could form some sort of alliance of a New Christendom.

wouldn't it be cool if on the outskirts of every major city in the US there was a small Catholic town?  :
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Actually, this division and quarrel among the Ave Maria board and faculty, etc., is an ugly, ugly situation - all too typical of the destructive infighting that tends to occur among conservative Catholics. Pray for these people.
A lot of the Ave Maria faculty and staff are very unhappy with Monahan's moving of the college to Florida (against their consent) and of his firing of Dr. Rice.
This is hardly a "sweet" or positive situation.

And actually, I think this sort of thing can be an argument against the creating of insular "Catholic communities."
I live in what is in many ways a very good, very close Catholic Community (though we don't have our own self-contained town or anything). But I have seen first hand that unfortunately, in such situations when in a cozy, insular environment, Catholics tend to fight among themselves over petty things, rather than fight the larger battle against the evils of the world. Sad but true.

[daugher-of-Mary]

I don't know, but I am VERY curious to know what site in PA you've picked out for your first "village," Al.

[Aloysius]

Well the way Sojourner advertized it with the title, it sounded good. I don't know too much about this situation. I hardly see this as an argument against making Catholic towns, though.

From the way you describe the situation, why would Sojourner have attached it to my idea at all? That annoys me. My idea has nothing to do with taking things away that people expect to have, moving colleges around and angering a bunch of people..

[Sojourner]

Al, I attached it to your idea because it's very similar in its construction. It's billed as being an insular Catholic community, much as I'd understood your Chesterbel to be.

And, as Socrates pointed out, such Catholic (or Christian) communities rarely work out as planned.

I'd be interested to know how you've come to your conclusions about the goals of social justice. Care to provide a little background?

And sorry I won't be able to participate too long ... I have a friend coming over and we're making cookies.

[Aloysius]

you don't think Catholic Social Justice is about establishing the reign of Christ on earth? that seems really weird to me...

[Socrates]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 11 2005, 07:36 PM']Well the way Sojourner advertized it with the title, it sounded good.  I don't know too much about this situation.  I hardly see this as an argument against making Catholic towns, though. 

From the way you describe the situation, why would Sojourner have attached it to my idea at all?  That annoys me.  My idea has nothing to do with taking things away that people expect to have, moving colleges around and angering a bunch of people..
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I think the only connection is that Monahan's proposed "Ave Maria Town" sounded a bit like your ideas.

I don't know all the details of the Ave Maria, quarrel, but have seen it covered in [i]The Wanderer[/i], and it appears to be a rather ugly, bitter situation.

And I know from my experience, that Catholics tend fight among themselves when they have it too good. I watched the Catholic pro-life organization HLI tear itself apart, and I have seen other destructive, ugly divisions arise over petty things among "good Catholics."

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 11 2005, 07:44 PM']you don't think Catholic Social Justice is about establishing the reign of Christ on earth?   that seems really weird to me...
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I'll admit total ignorance on the goals of social justice. It's not something I've ever studied. I'm familiar with many of the areas in which said justice is worked out, but I never realized it was for the purpose of establishing the reign of Christ on earth.

Is that the official line? What documentation have you got to support your position?

[Aloysius]

I hadn't much taken the time to think of how I drew that conclusion, since it just seemed obvious to me that our social work in the world and our work to better the state is ultimately the work of bringing about to in the fullest possible way Christ's Kingship over the earth..

As for anything official, I believe Pius XI's Quas primas does a pretty good job of talking about the Social Reign of Christ the King.

[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_11121925_quas-primas_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/...-primas_en.html[/url]

[Aloysius]

btw, the concept of "[url="http://www.chesterbel.net"]Chesterbel Enterprises[/url]" is to work on Catholic Social Justice from the business world, especially promoting economic thomism AKA ChesterBellocian distributism and most particularly in regards to the spreading of the absolute right to private property. the main project it is currently planning to undertake is building a nice little Catholic town where people can simply own (without mortgages et cetera) their own houses and raise strong Catholic families with good simple honest work. slight distinction between "Chesterbel Enterprises" and its plans for buiding a little Catholic town.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 11 2005, 08:34 PM']I hadn't much taken the time to think of how I drew that conclusion, since it just seemed obvious to me that our social work in the world and our work to better the state is ultimately the work of bringing about to in the fullest possible way Christ's Kingship over the earth..

As for anything official, I believe Pius XI's Quas primas does a pretty good job of talking about the Social Reign of Christ the King.

[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_11121925_quas-primas_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/...-primas_en.html[/url]
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I'll have to read that sometime in the not-too-distant future.

I guess I'd just never heard that Catholics thought Christ was going to come back and have an actual physical earthly kingdom. It certainly goes against my understanding of what Christ says in the gospels, e.g., in John 18:36 (My kingdom is not of this world, etc.)

I'd assumed the point of social justice was so that we can be conformed in the image and likeness of Christ through obedience to his commands.

[Aloysius]

perhaps you took my words too literally. when I refer to the restoration and advancement of Christendom, the reign of Christ on earth, I mean it in this fashion:

[quote]18. Thus the empire of our Redeemer embraces all men. To use the words of Our immortal predecessor, Pope Leo XIII: "His empire includes not only Catholic nations, not only baptized persons who, though of right belonging to the Church, have been led astray by error, or have been cut off from her by schism, but also all those who are outside the Christian faith; so that truly the whole of mankind is subject to the power of Jesus Christ."[28] Nor is there any difference in this matter between the individual and the family or the State; for all men, whether collectively or individually, are under the dominion of Christ. In him is the salvation of the individual, in him is the salvation of society. "Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given to men whereby we must be saved."[29] He is the author of happiness and true prosperity for every man and for every nation. "For a nation is happy when its citizens are happy. What else is a nation but a number of men living in concord?"[30] If, therefore, the rulers of nations wish to preserve their authority, to promote and increase the prosperity of their countries, they will not neglect the public duty of reverence and obedience to the rule of Christ. What We said at the beginning of Our Pontificate concerning the decline of public authority, and the lack of respect for the same, is equally true at the present day. "With God and Jesus Christ," we said, "excluded from political life, with authority derived not from God but from man, the very basis of that authority has been taken away, because the chief reason of the distinction between ruler