Was asked an interesting question....

[Marieteresa]

Hey folks,
A friend and I got into a discussion about religious orders now a days. She brought up alot of good points about many religious orders living better than the poor even though they take a vow of poverty.

She commented on many religious orders having health insurance...Which those living in poverty dont have. She said that many go shopping for luxuries which they dont need and that they have many luxuries that many living in poverty don't. Also she commented saying that those religious orders in third world countries are truely living there vow of poverty.

Anyway she asked why would I join most of the religious orders out there today Because they arent truely living a vow of poverty. Iam just wondering do you guys think this is true? Also how can I show her that most religious are living their vow of poverty.

In Jesus, Our Blessed Mother and St. Teresa

Edited November 6, 2005 by Marieteresa

[Totus Tuus]

Are you comparing the religious vows to poverty in [i]America[/i] or in third world countries? Because most of America's poor are not at much of a disadvantage. I'm j/w.

[Marieteresa]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' date='Nov 6 2005, 05:43 PM']Are you comparing the religious vows to poverty in [i]America[/i] or in third world countries? Because most of America's poor are not at much of a disadvantage. I'm j/w.
[right][snapback]780483[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


I was just saying in general....I don't know if it was a comparing.

JMJ

[Susan]

From the religious I know, I think even in "good" communities there is probably some need of improvement in living poverty. However, it was explained to me that the vow of poverty isn't the same as destitution and that today in order to do the apostolate effectively it takes money. It takes a lot of money for communities like Nashville, for example, to educate all those sisters to be good teachers.
Having health insurance is not against poverty. And many poor people have "welfare" which you might say is a form of health insurance...sort of. Today, drs can't just give their services without charge although some do at least try.
I don't quite know what the answer is. Sometimes, for a community to live strict poverty it means that lay people have to support them. The CFR's have the old Dominican monastery in Newark but the lay people had to work HARD to raise the money to purchase it for the friars. I'm not saying it's wrong, but I'm just saying that it's a thorny question.
Poverty isn't the goal of religious life, but a means and I guess that changes with the times. Some religious can be totally detached from the stuff around them and others can be really attached and the important thing is not to be attached, I think.
I've known a lot of religious that live the vow in an edifying way. The community might own stuff and all but they didn't act like it was there stuff. It was for their use if necessary and if not necessary they didn't take advantage of it.

I also think I'm talking around in circles!

Sorry. It is a hard question, I admit.

[Nathan]

When members of religious orders take the vow of poverty, they do not take a vow to live in squalor. It simply means that they don't own any possessions or take a salary; all of their books and clothing and whatever else belong to the order, and whatever salary they may earn at their job (say, if they're a hospital chaplain or something) goes straight back into the order.

Religious orders [i]do[/i] take good care of their people, and that often includes providing them with a modest annual stipend for recreational usages -- going to the movies or eating at a restaurant once in awhile, taking the occasional vacation. This is all for their spiritual well-being, just as healthcare insurance is for their physical (and mental) well-being. Orders put a lot of time and money into the formation of their priests and sisters; it's only logical that they should take steps like these to make sure they are happy and healthy.

[Marieteresa]

[quote name='Nathan' date='Nov 6 2005, 06:49 PM']When members of religious orders take the vow of poverty, they do not take a vow to live in squalor. It simply means that they don't own any possessions or take a salary; all of their books and clothing and whatever else belong to the order, and whatever salary they may earn at their job (say, if they're a hospital chaplain or something) goes straight back into the order.

Religious orders [i]do[/i] take good care of their people, and that often includes providing them with a modest annual stipend for recreational usages -- going to the movies or eating at a restaurant once in awhile, taking the occasional vacation. This is all for their spiritual well-being, just as healthcare insurance is for their physical (and mental) well-being. Orders put a lot of time and money into the formation of their priests and sisters; it's only logical that they should take steps like these to make sure they are happy and healthy.
[right][snapback]780526[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

You made a good point but the problem is...Is that it would be difficult explaining this to her since she would only see this as a life of luxury.

Thanks,

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
11/6 - Thirty-second Sunday

Remember, too, that [i]individuals[/i] take vows of poverty, not orders. As one who has taken the vow, you personally would be poor and completely reliant upon the community. The vow does not extend to the community as a whole.

[Totus Tuus]

It's totally about your own personal detachment. Of course when things get way out of hand with an entire Order there is often need of a reform. But I don't think we have gotten to that point here in America. There is such a revitalization of the religious life, and I think it's going to take some time for the many young women who are taking vows to re-learn how to live the vow, considering religious life had died and is just now being re-born. I think it's probably tough for them not to have a good pattern to look to from the last few decades. That might be a far-fetched hypothesis, but I really think it has a little to do with the way religious today live poverty.

[jgirl]

Obviously your friend is equating religious life poverty to third world poverty. The interesting order is the Missionaries of Charity. I work with them a few times a week, and as an order they live out extreme poverty. They each have two saris, and they don't have cells because the poor don't have privacy (I assume that's in India since poverty in America is totally different with the inner city poor that we work with). When they want to change their saris, they change them under the sheet on their cots. They are totally dependent on the generosity of God and others to survive and perform their apostolate. Everything we use or give out was donated (they get some neat donations, like one bakery gives them all their day old donuts, and one of the Italian restaurant chains will bring their day old salad and pasta sauce via cab to the soup kitchen). Their poverty detaches them so that they are ready to be sent where they are needed with usually no notice. They have two saris, a pair of sandals (sometimes they wear donated sneakers or boots when the weather get really cold), some socks, a sweater and their prayer books. It all fits into a small bag when they move to new assignments.

The MCs have the fourth vow of wholehearted service to the poorest of the poor, but when you look at her rule to see who is the poorest of the poor, her definition includes pretty much all of humanity.

As for other orders, they can be a little more posh than that, but the Sisters usually still follow their vow. It's on an individual basis. It's a realization that you are forfeiting your right to own whatever you want to free yourself to love Christ completely without anything hindering you. While it's not necessarily third world poverty, it's still poverty.

Health insurance actually helps the poverty. In America, the costs of health care are ridiculously inflated, and if a Sister gets sick and needs some kind of a surgery, the costs will reach into the thousands. What if one of the Sisters gets cancer and needs to undergo treatment? It would probably drain the community's resources pretty quickly. Even the CFR Sisters who live a pretty intense poverty for active Sisters have health insurance. A teaching order like Nashville has an advantage because the Sisters teaching in the schools would have the health insurance benefit extended to them either at no cost or a reduced cost.

[alicemary]

I think that poverty means, as others have so wonderfully said, a detachment from material goods. I admire Mother Teresa's sisters, and wish I could have that much detachment, but sadly am sorely lacking. I don't think many are called to such severe forms, at least in the USA..
Health insurance is mandatory for any large group, as is dental insurance. Though it is hard to see things from such a practical viewpoint, sisters and nuns are women, and can get a variety of sickness. Even sisters must have preventive care(including visits to the gynecologist) and that really can add up.
Poverty today...such an intersting topic. Thanks for bringing it to the group.
alicemary

[Nathan]

Let us not forget: even Jesus and his Apostles carried a money bag.

[Susan]

The rule Dominicans follow is the Rule of St. Augustine and he says that the community must provide for the individual needs and that one person has a need that another doesn't have. The big thing for him is that the community follows the Apostles and the early communities of the Church by holding all things in common. For me it would be easier to do without than to have to ask for things and I guess that's the whole point!

St. Dominic in the beginning wanted the friars to beg for their daily food but that quickly changed because providing for the needs of the community was taking away from their preaching. On the other hand. St Dominic sold and exchanged lands so that the nuns wouldn't be destitute and would the means to support themselves.

I think what's hard about the vow of poverty is that it is lived in so many different ways in the different charisms and we want it cut and dry and be just one way.

[Marieteresa]

Wow, you guys had brought up some good points. Heres another thing I wanted to add, My friend wanted to know about various orders whom have alot of money put away and not putting it to use. I mean why would they store up that much money...I was a little confused when she brought that up. In other words she said that there are "rich" orders.

Thanks
In JMJ

[alicemary]

I believe what they are referring to is that many communities have investments(stock, bonds etc). What you have to understand is that communities are made up of individuals who pool expenses and any assets that are enmassed. It is expensive to house, clothe and feed so many. Real estate today is so very expensive. Convents have to be maintained, and workman cost a fortune to hire. Many communities are top heavy with older sisters, they may not work, may be infirm and the community has to provide the care or pay others to provide it. In essence, the congregation is a large organization that has bills, must pay the bills and provide for tommorrows bills. And anyone who pays their own health insurance knows how expensive that can be. So congregations must have money 'in the bank' to ensure their tommorrows.
Sorry so long winded. Does that help?
Alicemary

[TeresaAvila]

I think in regards to poverty it's not only just in what the communities have but also in how they use what they have (either bought or donated) for a few examples in the day-time when sisters are up turning the heat down and putting on an extra sweater to help save money or in washing the dishes using the soap sparingly and holy poverty is a detachment of material things and also detachment from the self, and the passions of the flesh, so to become truly humble, obedient, charitable and totally devoted to our lord, where our hearts, minds, souls are no longer self/world centered but Chist centered.

God Bless You!