School Curriculum

[scardella]

[quote name='PadreSantiago' date='Nov 16 2005, 10:58 PM']you are so silly!  Your timing is great; are you a pitcher and or comedian?  Here's a quote from a little thing called the declaration of independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

So in answer to your question; we as americans have had the right to absolute happiness since oh say I don't know July 4, 1776 give or take.  =)[/quote]

If you haven't figured it out yet, the law isn't something that drops out of the sky like some golden orb of wisdom. That's why our founding fathers allowed for change. They knew that they, too, were just as broken as we are. We know our emotions are subject to constant change. I can feel warm fuzzies one minute, and be blazing in anger the next. Simple popularity of an action is just an amalgram of people's emotions, en masse. Look at mob mentality. Fashion tastes change every year. We cannot base our decisions on such things, particularly law, something hard to change. Those alone should be enough to dissuade you from thinking these are acceptable modes to live by.

We, being the frail beings that we are, have to base our law on something fixed, something firm. We know that firm, fixed thing to be morality. We must turn to our intellect and reason, therefore, to establish the justice or injustice of an act or law. Some rules of law have ignored it, to their disaster. Others have respected it, and fared better.

[quote name='PadreSantiago']Now as to your silly argument about someone breaking into my house to make themselves happy.  Come now, we all know you can't infringe on others rights.  That's not part of the deal.  But being gay or being married and gay does not in any way shape or form infringe on your rights.  So it is ok.  and so I say good day to you sir! 
[/quote]

Are you a parent? If you are, do you discipline your children? If so, you are infringing in their rights! Setting rules? Infringing on their God-given freedom. God forbid that you actually spank your child! Child abuse! Why have a government? Speed limits just infringe my right to drive like the maniac I was born to be! Taxes? They're taking all my hard-earned money!

Here's a few quotes from a play called "A Man For All Seasons"
[quote][b]The Duke of Norfolk:[/b] Oh confound all this. I'm not a scholar, I don't know whether the marriage was lawful or not but dammit, Thomas, look at these names! Why can't you do as I did and come with us, for fellowship!
[bSir Thomas More:[/b] And when we die, and you are sent to heaven for doing your conscience, and I am sent to hell for not doing mine, will you come with me, for fellowship?

[b]William Roper:[/b] So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
[b]Sir Thomas More:[/b] Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
[b]William Roper:[/b] Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
[b]Sir Thomas More:[/b] Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!

[b]Sir Thomas More:[/b] I think that when statesmen forsake their own private conscience for the sake of their public duties, they lead their country by a short route to chaos.[/quote]

[quote name='PadreSantiago']I'm glad to see someone accepting the possibility that it's in the genes. But come on listen to yourself. You are talking about homosexuality like it's a disease. Alcholism is a disease but homosexuality isn't.[/quote]

I beg to differ. To use your style of debate, of course homosexuality is a disease! Only a fool would think marriage is possible even if they cannot do the natural marriage act (genital heterosexual intercourse)! hardeharharhar!

Note how I have tactfully removed any support of that argument. Note how I laugh at you, as if this is a lauging issue. Note how I insinuate, ever so subtlely, that anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool. This, fellow traveller, is a well-crafted, wittily executed troll that would make Johnathan Swift mighty proud.

[Socrates]

[quote name='PadreSantiago' date='Nov 17 2005, 01:19 AM']I have held my tongue friend and been nice.  What does the bible say about calling people trolls?(Matthew, chapter 7 verse 12)  No matter call me a troll again.  I welcome your insults.

Now, what I'm saying is your beliefs can't be pushed onto the american public.  Gay people have the right to live their lives just like you and me.  Your morals don't apply to them.  If they have to goto Vermont or New Jersey then they will YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT!  The best part is you don't know who they are, hahaha they could be serving your food, teaching your children, or even be your boss!  Not to be cliche but they are here and they are qwerty.
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[/quote]
The Bible says nothing about calling people trolls. Christ Himself called people hypocrites, broods of vipers, whited sepulchers, and sons of the devil. Would you prefer one of those terms to "troll"?

Troll is not a personal insult, but merely an accurate description of your online activity. You don't give reasoned coherent argument, but merely make a lot of absurd puerile statements that you figure will provoke or offend the "religious" Phatmass crowd. Looks like trolling to me!

I could really care less if I don't know who is "gay." I'd prefer not to know. If they're going to practice that disgusting vice, it's best that they have the decency to keep it "in the closet," rather than throw it in everyone else's face!
There are people with a wide variety of perversions living among us. That doesn't mean their perversions deserve special legal recognition or privileges.

Edited November 18, 2005 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='PadreSantiago' date='Nov 16 2005, 10:58 PM']you And wow!  I got compared to Adolf Hitler!  That's a first.  You make me blush sir.  I mean it's one thing to call someone evil, but do be compared to the POSTER BOY of evil of the last 100 years.  Wow i don't even know what to say.  Well first off I'd like to thank all the gay people whose rights I've been standing up for, that was SOOOO adolf hitler of me.  I bet adolf hitler loved gay people!  Especially gay jews!  Ich sage guten Tag zu Ihnen sir...
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[/quote]
Don't flatter yourself. You're no Adolf Hitler. You're Diet Evil. You're margarine evil.

My only point is I'm sure Hitler (and Stalin,and all other evil dictators) shared your sentiments about not having to "bow down to any man or church but god I can have my own morals."

Pretty convenient having your own morals, isn't it? Sure Hitler's morals may have included things like genocide, but, hey, who are we to judge?

Everyone having their own morals is nice, until you run into someone else with his own morals who's bigger and badder than you and whose morals have no problem with wasting you!

Edited November 18, 2005 by Socrates

[PadreSantiago]

It is convient to have my own morals. In fact that's the point! I am my own person I don't allow a book written 2000 years ago guide my life. I'm glad that I'm more loving than you and able to accept people as they are. I'm glad my morals tell me that in america we have a thing called freedom and it's not my or your right to take that away from anyone, regardless of race, creed or sexual orientation.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='PadreSantiago' date='Nov 17 2005, 10:41 PM']It is convient to have my own morals.  [right][snapback]793732[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
They don't strike me as particularly original. You seem to represent the liberal status quo. But I haven't read many of your posts so maybe I'm wrong.

[quote name='PadreSantiago' date='Nov 17 2005, 10:41 PM']I don't allow a book written 2000 years ago guide my life.
[/quote]
The Bible as a whole (I assume that's what you're referring to) was actually written over a rather long span of time. But anyway, what do you allow to guide your life? Just curious.

[quote name='PadreSantiago' date='Nov 17 2005, 10:41 PM']I'm glad that I'm more loving than you
[/quote]
I haven't seen any evidence of this, and you aren't making yourself look more humble, that's for sure.

[quote name='PadreSantiago' date='Nov 17 2005, 10:41 PM']and able to accept people as they are. 
[/quote]
Except for us right? But since you're so loving, perhaps you feel compelled to reach out to us with sarcasm and condescension in order to save us from a self-destructive path. Or is loving concern the same as spineless apathy and disinterested "acceptance"?

[quote name='PadreSantiago' date='Nov 17 2005, 10:41 PM']I'm glad my morals tell me that in america we have a thing called freedom and it's not my or your right to take that away from anyone, regardless of race, creed or sexual orientation.
[/quote]
My morals never talk like that. I learned all that from my fourth grade teacher. But I know what you mean. Unfortunately for you, freedom is for the good, not evil. Otherwise freedom would include man-boy love, rape, stealing and assassinating government leaders. Freedom in any society is subordinate to the common good which ought to include human dignity, which is often left out of the equation in our currently unhealthy society. The institution of marriage is essential to the good of society and deviant sexual lifestyles which seek a legitimacy and status on par with marriage are an attack on the common good and the fabric of society. There are many other problems with things of this sort I can assure you. Liberal propaganda and bigotry is no substitute for coherent moral truth and the common good.

Please don't take my tone of sarcasm personally, I'm trying to engage you in discussion with a similar style.

[PadreSantiago]

You seem like a reasonable person.
"But anyway, what do you allow to guide your life? Just curious."

Good question! I guide my life....

"Except for us right?"

I accept you. I've always said in my posts you can have you beliefs. But you can't push those beliefs on others, which is what you do when you try to ban gay marriage. I have no tolerance for the intolerant. And the only reason I may use sarcasm is because none of you will listen to reason. So i have to quote the bible, or use an extreme example. But then you just flip it around. LIke when I talk of freedom you will say something like BUT HEY PEOPLE AREN'T FREE TO STEAL STUFF OR KILL YOU! WELL DUH! Obviously rape, stealing and killing is evil; all those things harm people. A gay couple getting married does not harm you at all!

[PadreSantiago]

Here read this and think about what you've done to your fellow man.

"Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. When he began the reckoning, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents; and as he could not pay, his lord ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, `Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.' And out of pity for him the lord of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. But that same servant, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and seizing him by the throat he said, `Pay what you owe.' So his fellow servant fell down and besought him, `Have patience with me, and I will pay you.' He refused and went and put him in prison till he should pay the debt. When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their lord all that had taken place. Then his lord summoned him and said to him, `You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?' And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."

Matthew 18:23-35

[chickens4life]

marrige is a sacrementel right, and homosexual activity is imoral, and people envolved in it must first care more about plesure than there souls, and there for are unlikly to honestly care if they are married when the engage in homosexual activity. so banning them from getting married dosn't stop them in there activitys at all.

you said that murder, rape and all that, is wrong because it hurts people. sexual sins of all kinds do hurt people to, just in a part of them self (the soul) that many people in our culture fail to recognize. (evey one has got one even if they don't think so.)

[Socrates]

[quote name='PadreSantiago' date='Nov 17 2005, 10:41 PM']It is convient to have my own morals.  In fact that's the point!  I am my own person I don't allow a book written 2000 years ago guide my life.  [right][snapback]793732[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

While I'm sure you love the idea of making up your own morals, I'm pretty sure you'd want everyone else to abide by at least some form of universal moral standards!

How would you like it if everyone else had their own personal "morality" which amounted to nothing more than "look out for number one and screw everyone else"?

(ps. -somehow I find your Saddam Hussein avatar oddly appropriate. Now there's a man who didn't let anyone or anything else guide his life!)

[avemaria40]

[quote name='PadreSantiago' date='Nov 17 2005, 01:17 AM']I'm glad to see someone accepting the possibility that it's in the genes.  But come on listen to yourself.  You are talking about homosexuality like it's a disease.  Alcholism is a disease but homosexuality isn't.
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[/quote]

If homosexuality was genetic, care to enlighten me how it is passed on?

[annie]

does not the avatar speak for itself?

[scardella]

[quote name='PadreSantiago' date='Nov 17 2005, 10:41 PM']It is convient to have my own morals.  In fact that's the point![/quote]

Morals only make sense when they're NOT CONVENIENT. When they're convenient, what does it matter?

[quote]Do to others as you would have them do to you.  For if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them.  And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do the same.  If you lend money to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit (is) that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, and get back the same amount.
-Luke 6:31-34[/quote]

[quote]I am my own person I don't allow a book written 2000 years ago guide my life.  I'm glad that I'm more loving than you and able to accept people as they are.[/quote]

Isn't it more loving to want someone to be the best they can be? "Oh, you're beaten half to death! Well, good luck and all, but I really have to go. I do love you as you are, though. I just want you to know that." That's madness! I'm glad my parents didn't "accept me as I was"! I'm glad my friends didn't accept me as I was! I'm a lot happier now, thanks to them interfering with my freedom.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='PadreSantiago' date='Nov 18 2005, 02:46 PM']Obviously rape, stealing and killing is evil; all those things harm people.  A gay couple getting married does not harm you at all!
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[/quote]

How can stealing harm people? Where did you get that value? How have you decided its a value? your heart? Society? Natural Law?
Is it a "given" that stealing is wrong? Who gave it?


Back to the subject:
Gay people can't get married because a marriage is a union of male and female for mutual support, sanctification and the procreation of children.
Two people of the same sex might live together and adopt or otherwise procure children, but it will never be a marriage.

[PadreSantiago]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 20 2005, 06:01 PM']How can stealing harm people? Where did you get that value? How have you decided its a value? your heart? Society? Natural Law?
Is it a "given" that stealing is wrong? Who gave it?
Back to the subject:
Gay people can't get married because a marriage is a union of male and female for mutual support, sanctification and the procreation of children.
Two people of the same sex might live together and adopt or otherwise procure children, but it will never be a marriage.
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[/quote]

if gay marriage is so wrong why isn't it in the 10 commandments like killing and stealing?

[avemaria40]

thou shalt not commit adultery is used against any form of immorality whatsoever and Leviticus does point out that sodomy is wrong and grave