School Curriculum

[TheOliverOrder88]

Not really a debateable topic, I am sure you all agree with me on this.

I get very very frustrated with my school when they teach something that is contrary to Church teacher. Like for instance, my freshman religion teacher came out and said that being gay was "ok" and that you were borne that way.

All of my religion teachers (except for one) are so liberal. It makes no sense to me, when I go to a Catholic school that they don't teach Catholic doctrine. Our school is not run by the archdiocese but shouldn't there be some authortive figure who enforces it.

Help me on this.

[cappie]

Maybe you can take heart from the following article.

Archbishop: Pope will ‘prune’ institutions with weak Catholic identity

Atlanta, Nov. 02, 2005 (CNA) - The Church, under the papacy of Benedict XVI, will likely refuse to support and maintain ties with institutions that have weakened or lost their Catholic identity, says Archbishop Michael Miller, secretary of the Vatican's Congregation for Catholic Education.


The archbishop made this speculation during his speech Monday at the 2005 Terrence Keeley Vatican Lecture at Notre Dame University, reported the Notre Dame University Observer.

The lecture reportedly drew some of Notre Dame's most prominent leaders, including the university’s president emeritus, Fr. Theodore Hesburgh, and the dean of arts and letters, Mark Roche.

Archbishop Miller based his prediction on the writings of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI. He said the writings indicate that the new Pope believes it is a mistake to uphold institutions that lack a solid Catholic identity.

"[The Pope] argued that it might be better for the Church not to expend its resources trying to preserve institutions if their Catholic identity has been seriously compromised," the archbishop was quoted as saying. "His writings show that a time of purification lies ahead, and this undoubtedly will have some ramifications for Catholic institutions."

Archbishop Miller said the Pope believes the “measure of an institution can be judged by its Catholic integrity."
"Benedict and others may believe that if a Catholic institution is no longer motivated by a Catholic identity, it is better to let it go," he reportedly said.

The archbishop suggested that the Church could take two approaches to such institutions: the Pope's "evangelical pruning" or a method of hopeful patience that the institution will eventually come around, the archbishop said.

He said the Pope “appears to be more inclined to avoid scandal and lead a path of evangelical pruning, but we don't know. We await."

The Catholic university is called to give collective witness to the faith, carry out the Church's evangelizing mission and provide service to the world, said the archbishop. One significant way to provide service is by developing partnerships with “emerging countries,” he suggested.

Apart from that trust forums like this.

[annie]

Oliver, we are dealing with the same thing. Our oldest dtr is 16 at a co-ed Catholic school, and she has had the worst teachers in religion. I think part of it is these 50+ yr old teachers are products of the 60's religious formation, which was marginal at best.

On that gay issue, though, I think your teacher is right--that to have the burden of same-sex attraction itself is not a sin--but to act on it is. I always ask my 8th grade Confirmation students if they think a gay person can go to Heaven. Invariably all say 'no'--which is not what the Church teaches. The Church does not teach WHY they are gay, just that if they are, for whatever reason, they are called to a chaste life, like everyone else.

[PadreSantiago]

It is ok to be gay and they are born that way. Why would god create people that were gay if it were a sin to be gay? And to expect people to be chaste because they are gay is stealing their right to have a happy life. Also being liberal has nothing to do with your religion.

[StatingTheObvious]

[quote name='PadreSantiago' date='Nov 11 2005, 09:38 AM']It is ok to be gay and they are born that way.  Why would god create people that were gay if it were a sin to be gay?  And to expect people to be chaste because they are gay is stealing their right to have a happy life.  Also being liberal has nothing to do with your religion.
[right][snapback]785630[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]some people are born with the tendency to be alcoholics, so it's okay to be a happy drunken bum too. but i'm sure you already know that since you are smarter than all the scientists and have proven that people are born that way, it's never a matter of choices in dealing with life. (just like sex addicts and alcholics and kleptomaniacs)

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='StatingTheObvious' date='Nov 11 2005, 09:13 AM']some people are born with the tendency to be alcoholics, so it's okay to be a happy drunken bum too.  but i'm sure you already know that since you are smarter than all the scientists and have proven that people are born that way, it's never a matter of choices in dealing with life.  (just like sex addicts and alcholics and kleptomaniacs)
[right][snapback]785646[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Exactly...if you claim that you have a right to do something because it will enable you to live a happy life, well that is moral relativism and is wrong in itself.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='PadreSantiago' date='Nov 11 2005, 08:38 AM']It is ok to be gay and they are born that way.  Why would god create people that were gay if it were a sin to be gay?  And to expect people to be chaste because they are gay is stealing their right to have a happy life.  Also being liberal has nothing to do with your religion.
[right][snapback]785630[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
You're misinformed. Catholics must apply their Faith to every situation and every aspect of life, from friendship to politics to sex. Being liberal today is often wrapped up in abortion and normalizing homosexuality. While the emphasis on social justice can be attractive, the moral repugnance of abortion and unchaste homosexuality can not be reconciled with the correct practice of Catholicism.
People can have a happy life without sex, homosexuals included. It's delusional to believe the opposite.

[PadreSantiago]

Do any of you actually know someone who is gay? Don't even make me bring up the catholic priest incidents and the vaticans total ambivalence to the matter. And no one even mentioned abortion yet, why bring that into it? You realize that if everyone is gay there'd be no abortion right. Why is god prejudice against gay people. Can't they have sex too? My dog is gay is he going to hell? Also I'd like to say that I'm sure there are a percentage of gay people who were ABUSED AS A CHILD and other enviromental factors made them gay but besides that people are either born straight or born gay.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='PadreSantiago' date='Nov 11 2005, 02:22 PM']Do any of you actually know someone who is gay?  Don't even make me bring up the catholic priest incidents and the vaticans total ambivalence to the matter.  And no one even mentioned abortion yet, why bring that into it?  You realize that if everyone is gay there'd be no abortion right.  Why is god prejudice against gay people.  Can't they have sex too?  My dog is gay is he going to hell?  Also I'd like to say that I'm sure there are a percentage of gay people who were ABUSED AS A CHILD and other enviromental factors made them gay but besides that people are either born straight or born gay.
[right][snapback]785845[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

-yes we know people who are struggling with same -sex attraction and those p[eople who live the "lifestyle". Your point?
-you can bring up almost anything you want this is the debate table.
We will point out the facts and not your fallacies on that topic.
-God is not prejudiced - He hates all sin, but not the sinners.
-Sex is reserved for a man and a woman married to EACH OTHER.
dogs are not "gay", mounting activities are dominent-submissive behaviors.
-child abuse can cause sexual and emotional difficulties but are not an excuse for later sin behavior.
-people are not born "gay".

[PadreSantiago]

[url="http://www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentwork/cns/2002-06-10/591.asp"]Read this article[/url]

Well ask the people that you know that are "struggling" with homosexuality if they can just be with a woman or if they were born gay. And read that article now what about these penguins, they are gay. Animals are driven purely by instinct so explain homosexuality in nature?

And listen if you are 5 years old and are sexually molested that puts seeds in your brain that will subconsciecely affect who you are attracted to and how you behave the rest of your life. It's not about choice when you are abused at such a young age. People have to go through years of therepy to even begin to get over something like that. They think it's their fault somehow and it just becomes a neverending cycle.

[quote]-Sex is reserved for a man and a woman married to EACH OTHER.[/quote]

What is marriage to you? Why is it so hard to accept that a man and another man can love each other and have the same right as you to show that bond through marriage.

[PadreSantiago]

speechless? Wow that's a first on this forum

[Socrates]

[quote name='PadreSantiago' date='Nov 12 2005, 02:15 PM'][url="http://www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentwork/cns/2002-06-10/591.asp"]Read this article[/url]

Well ask the people that you know that are "struggling" with homosexuality if they can just be with a woman or if they were born gay.  And read that article now what about these penguins, they are gay.  Animals are driven purely by instinct so explain homosexuality in nature? 
[right][snapback]786479[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Been there, done that.

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=40026&hl=gay+penguins"]See this thread.[/url]

[scardella]

Note: I use some explicit language in my argument.









First of all, let's get our terminology straight, so that we can talk civilly.

Homosexual inclination or
homosexual orientation - You feel attractions to the same sex, eg men being attracted to men.
Homosexual acts - male to male or female to female sexual conduct
Homosexual lifestyle - pursuing sexual relationships w/ a member of the opposite sex.
Continence - refraining from sexual activity
Chastity - proper integration of sexual function in one's life

Ok, now that that is done, let's look at the function of sexualiity. We see it defined in Ch 1 and 2 of Genesis:
[quote]God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.  God blessed them, saying: "Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on the earth."
- Genesis 1:27-28

The man gave names to all the cattle, all the birds of the air, and all the wild animals; but none proved to be the suitable partner for the man.  So the LORD God cast a deep sleep on the man, and while he was asleep, he took out one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh.  The LORD God then built up into a woman the rib that he had taken from the man. When he brought her to the man, the man said: "This one, at last, is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; This one shall be called 'woman,' for out of 'her man' this one has been taken." That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body.
-Genesis 2:20-24[/quote]

Here, we see the primary functions of sexuality:
1. Be fertile and multiply. (procreation)
2. Man clings to his wife, and the two become one body. (union)

Are these primary functions of sexuality possible in a homosexual union? NO. They only serve as a means of pleasure between the two parties involved. Let us examine this briefly:
1. Procreation - This is fairly obvious. You need a sperm and an egg to make a baby.
2. Union - You may say, AHA! but is it really union? Let's look at it in the most crass and banal way possible, to make it obvious: A penis is a protrusion from the man. A vagina is a receptacle. A protrusion doesn't fit another protrusion, and a receptacle doesn't fit a receptacle. You need a protrusion to fit into a receptacle. For female to female, you need a foreign object to enter into the vagina, which obviously hampers union. For male to male, you need to find another place to stick your protrusion, and those places aren't made for that, so that hampers union too.

So, what does homosexual conduct really mean? mutual objectification of the other for pleasure. Think of it like using someone else to help you masturbate.

But, wait a minute, isn't pleasure involved in sexual relationships? Of course. However, pleasure is a fleeting, capricious thing. If one pursues that as his primary goal, then, to his chagrin, he finds that he is less and less able to fulfill that pleasure high. He then pursues more and more extreme things to fulfill that pleasure. If this sounds like addiction, you've hit the nail on the head. That is exactly how addictions arise.

So, what is someone with a homosexual orientation to do? Simple, practice chastity. Since we've shown that homosexual activity does not fulfill the purpose of sexuality, then to be chaste, he must practice continence and not pursue a homosexual lifestyle.

Does this mean we are to hate and condemn someone who has a homosexual orientation? NO. We are reaching out to them in charity.

As far as being born with it, that doesn't make a material difference. See StatingTheObvious' post. BTW, yes, I know people who live a homosexual lifestyle.

Edit: I wanted to share this quote from [i]Imitation of Christ[/i] by Thomas a Kempis:
[quote]Now, I will speak again, O Lord, and will not be silent.  I will say in the hearing of my God and my King Who is on high: Oh, how great is the abundance of Thy sweetness, O Lord, which Thou hast hidden for those that fear Thee!  But what art Thou, for those who love Thee?  What, to those who serve Thee with their whole heart?  Unspeakable indeed is the sweetness of Thy contemplation, which Thou bestowest on those who love Thee.  In this mos of all hast Thou showed me the sweetness of Thy love, htat when I had no being, Thou didst make me; and when I was straying far from Thee, Thou brought me back again, that I might serve Thee: and Thou hast commanded me to serve Thee.  O Fountain of everlasting love, what shall I say of Thee?  How can I forget Thee, Who hast vouchsafed to remember me even after I was corrupted and lost?  Beyond all hope Thou showest mercy to Thy servant; and beyond all desert hast Thou manifested Thy grace and friendship.  What return shall I make to Thee for this favor?  For it is granted to all who forsake these things to renounce the world and to assume the monsastic life.  Is it much that I should serve Thee, Whom the whole creation is bound to serve?  It ought not to seem much to me to serve Thee; but this does rather appear great and wonderful to me, that Thou vouchsafest to receive one so wretched and unworthy as Thy servant.

It is a great honor, a great glory, to serve Thee and despise all things for Thee, for they who willingly subject themselves to Thy holy service shall have great grace.  They shall experience the sweet consolation of the Holy Spirit who, for the love of Thee, have cast aside all carnal delight.
Book 3, Chapter 10 [/quote]

Edited November 15, 2005 by scardella

[PadreSantiago]

hahahaha you make me laugh hehehe. Ok look first off gay people don't want your charity. And yes obviously couples that are gay, MEN THAT IS can't procreate. But think of this friend, lesbian partners can procreate. With science! Science is cool! And your talk of "union" define that. In my dictionary under the 4th definition:

a. marriage
b. sexual intercourse

ok so a union means marriage or sexual intercourse. Now I wonder what the defination of sexual intercourse is?

1.Coitus between humans.
2.. [b]Sexual union between humans involving genital contact other than vaginal penetration by the penis.[/b]

Ok so as you can see UNION=Sexual union between humans involving genital contact other than vaginal penetration by the penis.

But the thing to remember is you are caught up in definintions of words. Words are just symbols they can mean different things to different people. For example in Englaaand they call an apartment a flat! Isn't that crazy? The words you follow (the bible) is a well written book with HUGE amounts of knowledge and wisdom that apply to life; now and then. In fact I'd say that 99% of the bible is good people! But I want you to realize that in 2005 some things have changed. And in this day and age you have no right to define a union as simply between a man and woman. But remember you can hold your beliefs friend! Hold onto them, close to your heart as you would your child. But children grow up unless they goto never never land. So hide these beliefs and tell yourself and your friends you are right but don't infringe on their sexuality. That's why I like ideas more than belief, it's really easy to change an idea but not so easy to change a belief.

Ok now about the alcholic thing...this is in reply to statingtheobvious

DeoxyriboNucleic Acid! Alota people hear the word but they don't know what it means. DNA people it's the legos of life. Alcholism is a disease friend. If you have the alchohol gene it's like a light switch, in that you could go 50 years without having a drink but then one day have one and BOOM your addicted. That's how it works. It's heridtary, it's in the genes. My Grandmother was an alcholic, her son was an alcholic and I am one as well. That is completely different than homosexuality.. Lots of things can be addicting btw caffenine is addicting, church is addicting, running is addicting, watching tv is addicting. The fact is the human race is addicted, period. My point is that homosexuality is not a disease. So you cannot compare the two.

i pulled some quotes out of the bible to show how stuff in there doesn't apply to now anymore:


Deuteronomy
12 If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free.
.....
16 But if your servant says to you, "I do not want to leave you," because he loves you and your family and is well off with you, 17 then take an awl and push it through his ear lobe into the door, and he will become your servant for life. Do the same for your maidservant.

Ok so here they are talking about freeing your slave after 7 years WOW THAT'S SO NICE!!!!! Only 7 years of being a slave! And look if the slave doesn't want to leave you can keep him for life. An awl is like a 2000 year old ear piercing machine btw. And I'm not sure but I don't think the maidservant even gets the chance to leave after 7 years. What a rip off! Ok so you can see here how this doesn't apply at all to today.


the end

Edited November 16, 2005 by PadreSantiago

[Socrates]

[quote name='PadreSantiago' date='Nov 15 2005, 06:56 PM']hahahaha you make me laugh hehehe.  Ok look first off gay people don't want your charity.  And yes obviously couples that are gay, MEN THAT IS can't procreate.  But think of this friend, lesbian partners can procreate.  With science!  Science is cool!  And your talk of "union" define that.  In my dictionary under the 4th definition:

a. marriage
b. sexual intercourse

ok so a union  means marriage or sexual intercourse.  Now I wonder what the defination of sexual intercourse is?

1.Coitus between humans.
2.. [b]Sexual union between humans involving genital contact other than vaginal penetration by the penis.[/b]

Ok so as you can see UNION=Sexual union between humans involving genital contact other than vaginal penetration by the penis.

But the thing to remember is you are caught up in definintions of words.  Words are just symbols they can mean different things to different people.  For example in Englaaand they call an apartment a flat!  Isn't that crazy?  The words you follow (the bible) is a greatly written book with HUGE amounts of knowledge and wisdom that apply to life; now and then.  In fact I'd say that  99% of the bible is good people!  But I want you to realize that in 2005 some things have changed.  And in this day and age you have no right to define a union as simply between a man and woman.  But remember you can hold your beliefs friend!  Hold onto them, close to your heart as you would your child.  But children grow up unless they goto never never land.  So hide these beliefs and tell yourself and your friends you are right but don't infringe on their sexuality.  That's why I like ideas more than belief, it's really easy to change an idea but not so easy to change a belief. 

Ok now about the alcholic thing...this is in reply to statingtheobvious

DeoxyriboNucleic Acid!  Alota people hear the word but they don't know what it means.  DNA people it's the legos of life.  Alcholism is a disease friend.  If you have the alchohol gene it's like a light switch, in that you could go 50 years without having a drink but then one day have one and BOOM your addicted.  That's how it works.  It's heridtary, it's in the genes.  My Grandmother was an alcholic, her son was an alcholic and I am one as well.  That is completely different than homosexuality..  Lots of things can be addicting btw caffenine is addicting, church is addicting, running is addicting, watching tv is addicting.  The fact is the human race is addicted, period.  My point is that homosexuality is not a disease.  So you cannot compare the two. 

i pulled some quotes out of the bible to show how stuff in there doesn't apply to now anymore:
Deuteronomy
12 If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free.
.....
16 But if your servant says to you, "I do not want to leave you," because he loves you and your family and is well off with you, 17 then take an awl and push it through his ear lobe into the door, and he will become your servant for life. Do the same for your maidservant.

Ok so here they are talking about freeing your slave after 7 years WOW THAT'S SO NICE!!!!! Only 7 years of being a slave!  And look if the slave doesn't want to leave you can keep him for life.  An awl is like a 2000 year old ear piercing machine btw.  And I'm not sure but I don't think the maidservant even gets the chance to leave after 7 years.  What a rip off!  Ok so you can see here how this doesn't apply at all to today. 


                                                        the end
[right][snapback]790517[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Well, well, another tiresome troll. Nice way to completely avoid addressing the topic. What your Bible quotes have to do with homosexuality is beyond me.